and Martin explained:
>The LARP shows Moonson as being a noble who became Emperor after completing
>the rituals. Though I agree with MOB and Nick that this is fun and
>playable from the players perspective, I think it is less theologically
>correct than a singular Emperor. So while their work is excellent if one
>follows their argument and approach, I disagree with the core theological
>concept of the Emperors form.
I can see the concern in this, but I don't really think that LoM does contradict this - except possibly in player perception at the time it was run.
>This is the point at which I stick. Part of me yearns for the MGF approach
>but at the same time I don't want to betray the Lunar core of the Emperors
>history and myth for practical purposes alone. That is too easy. I'd
>rather lose some potential game fun than compromise this.
Laudable, but I'm with Alex in saying htat this conflict is probably overstated.
>>and what funky _practical_, _observable_ consequences ensue from same?
>The practical difference for me with the singular Emperor view is that the
>Emperor is not a noble with a past.
>This contradicts the LARP, though I don't think it contradicts the Tales
>#16 write up.
If this contradicts how the LARP ran - that's "Gloranthan reality" for you. The only LARPs I have played in or refereed which came halfway close to Gloranthan reality was Tarsh Wars at Convulsion 96.
In others, like People of Pavis, the LARP history deviates from GAG as much as a won game of KoDP deviates from the history of the Kingdom of Sartar. This is how LARP MGF works.
(But then in these LARPs my characters always end up in dubious, risky rituals...)
Still, these LARPS often do convey so much useful - and more importantly, vibrantly alive - detail and concepts. Much like a game of KoDP.
>The practical effects of this are for most people:
>Succession problems seem less "interesting" as the succession will be less
>ambiguous thus losing fun possibilities.
This is a problem similar to the exactitude the divination spell.
>Here I disagree somewhat. I think that the Emperor comes back and is
>singular but I don't believe that he is in control of the process. I think
>there is room for plenty of succession problems but I don't think they need
>be like the LARP view, even if it is MGF. There are plenty of things I'd
>think are MGF but aren't in Glorantha.
>Besides, we know the history of the past Emperors and we know that future
>history will see the Emperor gone for good, so for _practical_ purposes it
>doesn't matter one whit if he isn't singular because noone will become the
>Red Emperor in the future anyway.
I disagree: we will get a time of Emperors who are not Moonson, and we will get another (appearance of) Moonson.
We don't know yet how this new Moonson will appear, and whether or rather how PC action can influence his nature and reappearance.
>>Personally I think that continuity of, or come to that the existence and
>>nature of, individual consciousness is such a 'deep' topic that trying to
>>give 'God's telephone number' answers to it is a highly dubious approach.
>For you maybe, but I feel happier when I write if the deep background works
>and is cogent. I've found that the ambiguity of the Emperor has really
>slowed my writing down as I can't picture the holistic view in my mind.
>This
>may not bother some folk but it bothers me. Hence my expressing it on the
>list.
>Let us take a look at FS for clues as to the Emperors origin after each
>Mask is recognised and see why I want to clarify this:
>5/43 Artifex appears after Magnificus dies at Nights of Horror. He
>"reappeared the same year at Amuli (in Darjiin) during an otherwise
>insignificant local Full Moon rite He went to Raibanth with his supporters
>and witnesses. Doubt was vast among the DH nobility, who wanted to make
>their own High Priest into the new Emperor."
>Arfifex passed the Ten tests even though he had no major supporters and was
>obviously disliked by some DHs.
This isn't very different from Denesiod (IIRC).
>For someone who appeared at a ritual in a small city (and had witnesses to
>the fact) he seems pretty darn tough to be
>just a local lord making good.
One way to interpret this within the facts would be to draw a parallel on the well-established method used by Hon-eel in Tarsh, Jar-eel in Kethaela and Kallyr in Sartar:
Your claimant enters the ritual from the Other Side, identifying himself with the real thing through a series of quests which establish this identity. In the old "Free Will" concept of Heroquesting, the quester transforms his identity to his "Be Moonson" ability. If he is just an usurper, he will try to retain his identity. However, if he is the choice for the Moonson, no matter how he may try to be himself, he may be drawn into "Be Moonson".
Given Moonson's ability to inhabit several bodies and places simultaneously, I don't really see how a previous life even as a noble within the Empire would preclude a transformation into Moonson.
IMO Teelo Norri would have become Teelo Estara even if she had been "someone" prior to her role in the Seven Mothers rites. The Red Goddess may have been different for that. But these differences are what we observe in the various masks of Moonson.
>6/12 Venerabilis "returned at a ceremony in Hargoth." Another appearance
>at a small city.
Another appearance from the Other Side.
>6/41. Celestinus "appeared abrupty in Ebon city, climbing out of the
>sacred cave when it was empty, between rites."
Implying that he, too, entered from the Other Side, in this case even without a ceremony going on.
>Ebon city is out in the Imperial sticks on the other side of the Yolp
>mountains. His appearance seemed to have few initial supporters and we
>don't really know how long it took for him to reestablish his rule, as he
>did fight "wild rebels who were conspiring to resurrect Gbaji". Whatever
>that is.
Gbaji is the Other Self. This sounds very much like Moonson present fairly equally in Celestinus and whoever his opponent(s) (removed from history) was (were).
>7/3 Militaris. "The Emperor appeared next as Militaris. Militaris came
>from the city of Kedevi in Kostaddi and came to the world at a rite of the
>Three Brothers late in 7/3". Again, another appearance at a rite. Again a
>small city out of the way of major players.
The Three Brothers rite sounds like a strong appeal to the unity of the Empire which may at this time have shown a strong division into Carmanian, Dara Happan and Provincial factions. I wonder whether Phargentes was involved.
Reappearance in a seemingly insignificant place is the Lunar way, anyway - the reappearing Moonson mustn't do so in the face of the powers that might intend to replace him. Torang wasn't exactly the center of the Carmanian Empire either.
>So out of the Masks, Artifex, Venerabilis, Celestinus and Militaris all
>appeared at otherwise obscure rites in small cities and had no large
>initial followings or rituals. There is no mention of past history,
Which may mean that a powerful candidate from among the major players shed that identity on his way to exit from these rites. The disappearance of a major player during a succession crisis would be a notable, but hardly exceptional occurrence. I suppose that several major players get lost on the other side during the "usual course" of a Moonson succession.
>on the contrary, the actual fact of his appearance seems to have been taken
>by many to be the reason why he was worthy of support in the first place.
I see a strong parallel to Argrath White Bull's acceptance by the Praxian Khans. In the DP boardgame he is referred to as Jaldon, another single entity hero reborn again and again.
>Nor do we see any serious wars of succession other than the Proxy War
To quote you:
>he did fight "wild rebels who were conspiring to resurrect Gbaji"
has every ring of a serious war of succession.
>This is why I believe the Emperor to be singular. There is nothing in FS
>to say he isn't and a fair bit of evidence to say he is.
I say: Yes, he is a singular, and his presence may be assumed by a quester. Reappearance at a ritual or a sacred place strongly hints at this.
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #592
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