David Weihe
> Modern Orlanthi have far too much Ernaldan influences to really
>allow any actual bride-stealing to take place.
Alex Ferguson
>I'm sure it happens.
Good Orlanthi responses there. :)
>From: Alex Ferguson <abf_at_cs.ucc.ie>
[Warfare between clans of marriage partners]
>OTOH, there must surely be a Vingan myth for this situation, since
>for them, there bleedin' well had better _not_ 'be another way'...
>
Something to do with breaking heads on all sides I would imagine.
>> The average stead would have members of maybe three or four bloodlines
>> and the reason for this is spread of occupations. In order to be
>> largely self sufficent a stead needs carls, cottars, pig tenders
>> and even stickpickers. I don't see a bloodline rich enough to own
>> an ox team and plough allowing some individuals to be so poor as
>> to be reduced to stickpicking.
>
>Again you're assuming bloodline property, which is (in the sense
>my pedantic philsopher friends would approve of) begging the
>question. I'm not at all sure about the social dynamics of this,
>either: why is a large mix of occupations/statuses necessary? It'd
>be quite possible for a smallish stead, at least, to be focused on
>just one main economic activity.
That level of specialisation in agriculture is a modern trend. A stead would usually grow its own vegetables and fruit, keep its own livestock, make it's own clothes etc. Trading between steads at clan markets would be for luxuries, surpluses and occasional crops which could not be grown in a particular location. Furthermore Oranthi agriculture is reliant on a grain crop (e.g wheat or barley). This is a crop which requires very little labour for most of the year but a great deal at harvest time. Unless you are proposing a large pool of itinerant labourers, as was the practice in England in the 17th, 18th & 19th Centuries, you can't have a stead specialising in producing a grain crop. Equally to maintain an ox team for ploughing you need a herd of cattle so that involves herders and milkmaids. On a small stead many of those occupations will be combined but there will still be specialisation and that inevitably leads to differing status. This doesn't of course mean that every stead produces everything in exactly the same proportions they will tend to produce surpluses in whatever they are best at but it will be a rare stead which trades for common neccesities.
>But the example is handy enough, since it illustrates what I think
>is the key question: where you have a stead or household consisting
>of several bloodlines, which of them is the 'social unit', in
>operative terms?
I'm not sure what you mean by 'social unit' here. If you're asking who makes decisons it will be the senior specialist in the matter with conflicts resolved by the acknowledged leader who will usually be the head of the senior bloodline.
>It strikes me as odd, to say the least that one
>would have 'communal property' which is actually owned at social
>right-angles to the actual (micro-)community in which ones lives.
I think the difficulty lies with the idea of communal property itself which has virtually disappeared in our modern society. All that's left is the communal property of a married couple which tends to be based around a single place. So the closest modern comparison would be where one partner takes an item of communal property to work. It's still communal property but exists in a different community.
>> More likely an unrelated bloodline
>> chooses to live near to a good source of income and so becomes
>> part of the stead. KoS confirms this but uses the word household
>> rather than stead.
>
>Because they're not the same thing. What's KoS's "confirmation",
>specifically?
Aren't they? The paragraph I am referring to is in Jalk's book; the last paragraph under bloodline, family and household (Pg. 250 in my copy):
"A household is a settlement which often includes members of more than one bloodline. The families live co-operatively, each receiving their offical allotted part of the stead from the clan, and with the daily management handled by the local household head."
That I take to mean that a stead is where a household lives and works. I suppose stead could alternatively refer to all the clans land but isn't the word "tula" usually used for that?
>> In KoS a bloodline is described as the smallest social unit in terms
>> of _law_ as well as custom and tradition.
>
>It does say this, but what it actually means by this is as clear
>as mud. ;-)
>
>> Effectively that means the law does not recognise property
>> as owned by an individual, family or household. Within the bloodline
>> there may well be an agreement that that is Ragnar's spade but legally
>> it belongs to the bloodline.
>
>That's explicitly not true; from G:G, we know they _do_ have property
>at the clan and personal level. Household and stead property may
>be, as you say, something of a matter of custom and practice, rather
>than law: the hearthmistress's personal property, or the leading
>person's of a stead, may often 'act as if' household/stead property.
>And conversely, odal property may be 'traditionally for the use of'
>a particular stead or hearth, with a simimlar result, from as it
>were the opposite direction.
>
>Bloodline property OTOH I see no evidence of, and no logic for.
In a sense it's a legal issue only. If Harald takes Ragnar's spade and they are of the same bloodline they will take the disagreement to the bloodline head who has the final say. If they are not of the same bloodline then it becomes a matter for the clan lawspeakers and potentially the clan chief unless the heads of the two bloodlines can reach agreement first.
This is consistent with Brehon and Norse law AIUI - don't bother the chief and lawyers with family matters. At the same time it defines a clear set of resources to collect fines from, with the law being able to take the most convient bits to satisfy the judgement and leave the bloodline head with the job of sharing the penalty among the members. Certainly where the property is on different steads and used by different people that's going to be an awful headache.
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #847
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