>I don't see how you can dismiss the Taborites as "extremely poorly
>equipped and badly led" considering that they fought in well-equipped
>wagon fortresses-laagers and were ably led by one Zizka Hus, a
>distinguished knight.
The average Taborites were rural and urban poor, hardly model troops. Zizka (spell him as you will) was a fairly talented commander, but he was badly compromised by splintering within the spiritual arm of his movement. (It's also worth noting that Zizca and his commanders were lower nobility and disinclined to support the egalitarian desires of their co-religionists.) Eventually, Zizka spent his time supressing the fringes within his own movement (e.g. the Adamites), and the Taborites were eventually crushed by their more moderate Hussite "brothers." So yes, I'd say the Taborites as a whole were badly led, despite the effectiveness of individual leaders (besides Zizka, Adam-Moses seemed pretty capable of getting things done).
>As for the Muenster Anabaptists, they managed to seize control of
>the city after which the local bishop retook after besieging it for
>a year. While they may have been poorly equipped and badly led
>(insofar as Jan Beuckelzoon attempts to relieve the siege by
>charging out with only twenty men), I don't consider their success
>to be overly startling, considering they never managed to raise
>much support from Anabaptists elsewhere in Germany.
That's typical of the impact I'm talking about: intense but local. They managed to hold Muenster for about a year against a combined army of Catholics and Protestants (which took some doing, I suspect) while managing a complete reorganization of society within the city. That's reasonably successful in my book. The wider impact of Millenial groups is the way elements of their philosophies kept getting recycled by similar groups. The central ideas of these movements recur pretty regularly in Europe from the 13th through the 17th century. In Ralios, where city-states are the norm, groups like these could ptentially seize a whole country before being beaten down by their neighbors. (The Flagellants were relatively low key and orthodox in Italy; they might have had another Muenster had they been more "German" in their approach to flagellism.)
>>The
>>speed and ferocity of these movements say a lot about the anxiety
>>and dissatisfaction of Medieval Europe, even during the "high water"
>>period of the crusades.
>
>I don't think so. All it indicates to me is that the
>spirituality of the medieval community which was normally
>channeled into supporting the social could be extremely
>destructive if directed against it. I don't see why a
>malkioni/christian who supports the ruling order or follows
>an orthodox practice (like the Whyte Wyzards) should be
>seen as less religious than one who follows a condemned
>creed (like the Perfecti).
Anxieties and disatisfactions are what allows that spirituallity to be turned against society. I don't think supporters of the ruling class are less religious, although they are likely to be less fanatical. The orthodox churches are likely to be wary of any group that wanders too far from the center of their path, and with good reason (the Franciscans produced the Spirituals produced the Fratricelli). Disgraced priests being forced into seclusion, that sort of thing. Tensions are always going to exist between segments of a Church that has both spiritual and temporal aims and powers.
>>However, these urges [for the restoration of the Autarchy] could
>>translate to the poor, especially the anxious poor (displaced peasants,
>>urban paupers), as a longing for the original Kingdom of Logic (however
>>that place is spelled) or,
>
>I have doubts about this for Safelstran religion is centred upon
>Arkat rather than the Kingdom of Logic. Longing for the Kingdom
>of Logic makes as much sense as Christians longing for King
>Solomon's time.
The longing in the Middle Ages wasn't for the Roman Empire, it was for a fantasy kingdom loosely based on Biblical stories. Certainly the crusades were driven (in part) by a feeling that the Kingdom of Israel was somehow the rightful property of Christianity (obviously, Christ lived there, but Medieval Christians badly wanted to absorb Jewish history while rejecting the Jews). Maybe it would be better to say that fantasy kingdoms built around half-understood stories about Danmalastan, Malkion, etc. feature in (at least parts of) peasant lay religion in the West. Especially in Seshnela and the conservative parts of Ralios, where the Farmer caste has to resent its unending servitude.
and, to wander into the discussion between David Cake and Peter Metcalfe:
>Kaballah may appear rational but its practice does not involve
>rigorous application of rational thought which the Zzaburites
>are meant at least meant to be doing. And the Golden Dawn is
>even worse.
The Kaballah was fairly rigorous for its day. In a fantasy world where its exploration could bear more fruit, maybe it would be more so. Similarly, in our world Astrology is a discredited philosophy (which once had some very rigorous adherents) that works quite well for the Busarians (who aren't, perhaps, as logical as the Zzaburites but who have an extremely rigorous moral philosophy).
>We already have the Malkioni (impersonal) conception of the Cosmos
>(the five actions as the forms, elements and powers explore
>themselves). So why do the need for the sephiroth?
Is it possible to construct a Kabbala-like system around the five actions and those basic powers? I don't think importing the Kabbala whole would be good for anyone, but it might make a template for something....
>Fidelity to the laws. Development of their logical faculties through
>philosophy that allows them to appreciate the splendor of the same.
I like this as a succinct statement of Zzaburite philosophy. My only quibble is that many of Gloranthan natural laws do not resemble RW laws. The stars do affect people's destinies (and people affect the stars), those old laws of "similarity, contagion, etc" really work. So the Zzaburite logic should not match modern rationality too closely.
Lastly, Mark Galeotti says some good things about the Lunar occupation.
Peter Larsen
End of The Glorantha Digest V8 #113
Powered by hypermail