>From: darvall <madamx_at_ns2.mikka.net.au>
>Donald
>>I would dispute the "often" regarding Orlanthi farmers becoming Heroes,
>
>Often is a relative term. Relative to other cultures the frequency is
>astounding. This is founded in part in the fact that AFAIK all other
>Genertelan cultures are based , as you noted above, on peasants not on free
>farmers
Not true, the nomads of Prax and Pent will have at least as high a proportion of fighting heros as the Orlanthi. Nor are you comparing like with like, the proportion of fighting heroes in a Lunar army unit will be far higher than any Orlanthi tribe. That's because Pelorean culture is more specialised with full time soldiers, scholars, magicans and even tax collectors. Indeed a Lunar military hero may not be a particularly heroic fighter.
>There are rough figures on this somewhere but HW seems to indicate that all
>O/i communities will have some combative heros, albeit of a low level.
Certainly a clan will have several, but under the Lunar occupation a fair proportion of those will be either exiled or in hiding. I can't imagine every stead of half a dozen families having a hero.
>>We accept an heroic lawspeaker as a poor fighter and leader,
>
>I'd argue the leader bit. You want the support of 99 other folk on your
>quest? You'd best be pretty convincing, esp. if they stand to lose by it if
>you fuck up. Leadership is, IMO, much *more* neccessary for heros than any
>other trait.
But a lawspeaker isn't usually the leader, he's the guy who proves that the leader is the right person to follow, not that imposter who sold out to the Lunars years ago.
>And, indeed, my acceptance of the Lawspeaker as a poor fighter, poorer than
>the local champion perhaps but certainly capable of taking a place in the
>fyrd & very possibly capable of some quite serious mayhem. Remember that
>even the Ernalda Gwyda learns long spear combat. The whole society, with
>the notable exception, of a few healer devotees blues when required & often
>when not required. Fighting is not just the continuation of politics, it is
>also survival, sport, legal arguement & entertainment. Those who can't or
>won't are more exceptional than those who do.
The fact that almost every Orlanthi is ready to brawl at the drop of a cow turd doesn't mean that they are going to be all that good at fighting. Indeed KoS gives a Lunar assessment of the Orlanthi as fighters and estimates that less than 10% could match regular Lunar troops in battle. That's why the Lunars conquered Sartar, 10 minor heros, 90 decent warriors and 900 fyrd couldn't stand against even 500 regular soldiers.
>No problem, but your initial arguement was that
>>A handful of farmers praying on a hilltop is not of great significance<
> V8 #119
>My argument is that they are significant & were I the local commander I'd
>be rooting the practice out as vigourously as resources & politicians would
>allow me
In preference to the known danger from Gunder Stormvoice who you know is stiring up trouble?
>My take (& I may be well out here) on weaponthanes is that they do little
>or no farming. They are indeed specialist head kickers to the chief. That's
>why there's so few of them, they're not productive.
I may be a bit away from the consensus here, but I don't think of weaponthanes as the chief's bully boys. I look at them as combat specialists who are attached to a wealthy thane's household. The chief will usually have more than anyone else in the clan but less than half the total. This dispersal round the tula makes more sense from the point of view of training the fyrd - a lot more training will be done if it doesn't involve a long walk to the chief's stead. I don't think weaponthanes can avoid farming entirely, helping with the harvest and rounding up stray livestock (particularly if they have wandered near dangerous places) are jobs which spring to mind.
>However, those with the
>best weapon skills will not nesseccarily become weaponthanes.
[snip]
>The first initiation for the O/i male is the ordeal of the Pits (G.
>Stafford 'The Initiation of Orlanth' in KoS). That is their first adult act
>has to be one of heroism, & one that kills a number of initiands on a
>regular basis. Thus each & every adult O/i male & most of the females
>(Vorians excepted) has to have already performed heroicly by virtue of
>being an adult.
I'm not sure the Heortlings recreate the Initiation of Orlanth as the story is told for every male when they reach adulthood. Even if they do the test will be modified so that there is a much lower mortality rate. Certainly it has nothing to do with the cult of Ernalda which most females are initiated in.
>Finally, you need specialist weaponthanes a) as chief's bodyguard, in which
>role they'll use more unit oriented tactics than the average O/i hero &
>hence need to specialise.b) to provide the specialist leadership the fyrd
>will require (even in the very rudimentary sense the O/i use this term).
>These blokes don't need to be the best *individual* fighters (i.e. heroic
>warrior types). RW example: A martial artist with decent training will kick
>the crap out of 90% of soldiers, on an *individual* basis. Let those same
>soldiers work together as trained & your artist is gonna die.
>Heros, of course, can defeat warbands; but the O/i warrior hero does not
>have to spring from the weaponthanes. The general population has sufficient
>expertise at arms to throw up a hero. A fact I believe the Lunars greatly
>under-appreciate but that is not ignored by the Tarshite Vichies.
One of Greg's objectives with Hero Wars is that lone Heroes can't defeat warbands[1]. They rely on followers who make up their own warband so while an Hero can appear from anywhere they are going to need the training and support of weaponthanes. Just as they will need the help of Lawspeakers, Healers, etc. And for someone like Argarth those people will be at least minor heros in their own right.
[1] At least that's what I understood him to mean, and it's borne out by the combat system.
End of The Glorantha Digest V8 #138
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