> > That and the infamous CoT monomyth as well as some of the
> > draft/WiP merpeople material and unpublished stuff, all of these
> > sources subject to shift, change, and retcon as duly noted.
>
> CoT is one source at least I have to hand, and I see the term "Black
> Age" in it not.
Hardly surprising, given that I invented the term myself, last year ...
> (Unlike "later" ages, which appear explicitly.) Nor
> do I see how it in any way implies such a thing.
Yeah well, here's why this sort of thread is called "speculative".
> > Oh, and the Subere write-ups etc, especially the lovely one in UZ, for
> > the crunchiest sources of all.
>
> Is that "crunchy" in the Lawsian sense?
You * did * demand printed evidence ...
> > > Or possibly at a stretch of distinct "phases"
> > > in the Creation Age of the east. As actual myth goes though, it strikes
> > > me at first wink as being some place between mono- and non-...
> >
> > I'm not sure that actual myths-as-stories are possible * per se * for pre-
> > Green Age Glorantha, except as weird cosmogony and/or meditation
> > practices.
>
> Then the term "Age" seems at best over-engineered, does it?
We know the GL order of creation of the 5 Elements, and it would
seem odd,
at best, if there weren't a "Darkness Age" (as there was a Blue Age, a
Green one, etc.), a period that I call Black Age as a distinction from the
latter "Darknesses".
That period of Creation (or whatever) certainly occurred, prior to the appearance of the Waters, and is described in published sources as containing "formless blobs".
"Age" is the appropriate word.
And there _are_ stories about what these periods were like, which militates for those stories being Myths (i.e. mortal (re-)interpretations as stories of otherworld/magical phenomena).
> > They actually occur(red) at the core of the Green Age, and le(a)d to its
> > destruction. Greg has tried to explain this several times (but it's a
> > difficult subject) : the Golden Age is a consequence of the upheavals,
> > which means that they exist as causes in the Green Age. Similarly, the
> > Death of Yelm happens in the Golden Age, not the Storm Age.
>
> Greg has put this in pretty plain terms: if you've just killed someone,
> you're not in the Golden Age any more.
Whilst not wishing to be drawn into a discussion of the minutae of the GRAoY to support the argument, the physical * death * of "Yelm" is a result of an earlier destruction by "Umath".
Getting too godlearnerish for words here ... :-/
> Of course, this doesn't mean it can't be at the "apex",
> if you don't mind a funny-looking "waveform"...
What's funny-looking about a "waveform" showing the Union of Earth and Sky, producing Storm, being the Highest Event of the Golden Age and the Death of Yelm as its Lowest and Final one, and a direct consequence of what happened at the "apex" ?
> > Oh sorry : I meant to say that the Hero Planes _postdate_ the
> > brokenness, whereas early Black Age Glorantha doesn't, because the
> > first ever destruction was that of the Black Age. I think.
>
> I think I see what you're saying here: we have "middle world" type
> phenomenon, which results from interaction between things from different
> otherworlds; and we have an "undifferentiated world", in which the
> otherworlds don't exist/are mutually identified.
Yep.
> I agree, but I think calling the one "heroplanes" is confusing (bad
> Greg) and that calling the other "the Black Age" is v. v. confusing
> (badder Jules).
I do agree that there is some undesirable confusion here, and one of my purposes in this thread is to try and identify exactly where it springs from. I also realise that by its very nature, this is a subject matter that will engender extra confusion, almost randomly.
I really must repeat here, that I don't know what sort of "place" the Black Age and/or its cosmic "remains" can be, although I suspect that Greg would call it a Hero Plane. Which would _increase_ the confusion.
The real problem here is that it appears from the sources that the "elemental progression", the actions of the Gloranthan Court, the Five Movements, the separation/devolution/"re-mixing", were actually concurrent processes ; which is, of course, _why_ the elemental eras prior to the Green Age are so hard to understand.
It is important not to confuse the various POVs, but just as important to realise that the processes are organically linked (except during the various "broken" periods).
So, when I refer to the "Black Age", I'm discussing more the "elemental progression" and devolution of Glorantha (which is clear topicness, not confusing) than the structure of its Hero Planes (very confusing topicness). However, given that the various cosmogonic processes _are_ organically linked, the Black Age is organically different to the other periods : the logical consequence is that the original single world is contemporary of the Black Age, and any remaining fragments of the period would then, quite logically, be headache-inducing "defiant hero planes" or other somesuch cosmic singularity fields. (Gloranthan Black Holes ?)
OTOH, the Black Age is _exactly_ like a Hero Plane in many ways, including the facts that you can try and go there from the Blue Age (via the Styx for example), that it is a borderland between the otherworlds, and that many otherworld roolz mechanics can be used as is in that place (we all know that the _real_ definition of "Hero Plane" is : "otherworld place where HeroQuest characters can go heroquesting without having to worry about the tedious Alien World modifiers roolz"). But pre-Green Age Glorantha is so _weird_ that the Alien World modifiers would simply _have_ to be used.
...
Which is a _very_ roundabout way of saying that calling the prehistoric "Ages" of Glorantha "Hero Planes" is an extremely confusing and ultimately untenable proposal, IMO.
...
> I note that Greg has hedged his bets on when the
> "separation" happens, and indeed when the "re-mixing" happens, so good
> luck trying to make this distinction in any way systematic.
Aye, there's the rub. Proper distinction is just about feasible for pre- and early- Green Age Glorantha, but : are there various separate parts of "Golden Age" existing as separate parts of each otherworld, and why then don't the Alien World modifiers apply within their bounds ?
The otherworlds model is designed to be incoherent (but internally consistent), because Glorantha is a broken world, but this hero planes stuff is _really_ pushing the envelope I think ...
> So I want to hereby dig my heels in all the harder
> against being tied to identifying the pre-differentiated cosmos with
> "Blackageness".
Two separate issues actually, even in my contributions, so no pulling nor rope from me I'm afraid ... ;-)
Saying that the _early_ Black Age has "undifferentiatedness", as I have, isn't the same thing as saying that the pre-differentiated cosmos _is_ the Black Age. Not so. If it were, the "Black Age" term would be 100% unnecessary, which is of course your not-so-secret agenda, I-smell-a-rat- wise ...
> > We also don't really "know" (and probably can't) whether any previous
> > Philosophical, non-material Ages of Glorantha existed.
>
> I have no idea what you mean by a "Philosophical Age" -- which is, I
> half-suspect, why you use the term.
... "tip-toe around" rather than "use", but ... some Gloranthan sources mention pre-material "Philosophical" Entities (Mover, O, Thought, etc.). I think that these "beings" are most likely just another God Learner fallacy.
> No culture that springs to mind (and I'm open to correction here, of
> course) makes such a construction of, or regards in this way the "Black
> Age".
The God Learners did so, in their abstract elemental progression mythology, although the term itself is non-canon (as pointed out, fairly exhaustingly).
The Uz know of this period, although they _certainly_ don't call it a "Black Age". The merpeople may (or may not) have some knowledge about the period, via their River Styx mythology.
Julian Lord
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