> OK, friends, please be sure you are seated.
Hrm : well that was pretty Digesty, Greg ! ;-)
> >> I just want to remind you that Illusions are REAL. An Illusion is
> >> a Temporary reality, not a false or unreal thing. They are not
> >> mind tricks, they are not hypnosis or hallucination. They are
> >> temporary reality.
Which begs the question : what would one call a Gloranthan magician who used mind tricks/hypnosis/hallucination/Light powers/Smoke and Mirrors/whatever to create false and unreal things that disappeared with a wave of the hand, a gust of wind, etc ?
(apart from "Trickster", that is)
> ALL MAGIC IS "ILLUSION."
>
> Let's look at the Hindu "illusion" here.
> In most texts you find that the god Maya, who made the world, is
> translated as "illusion." This is a bad translation. It is better to
> translate it as "magic."
> The whole world is made of magic.
> Some of it is of longer duration. Your life is a life of magic.
> ALL EXISTENCE IS AN ILLUSION.
I've heard this before (about a year ago, actually), so I've had some time
to think about it ; and I think there's a logical trick here : which is,
actually, OK given the subject matter. No pun intended.
Essentially, a foundational Gloranthan fact.
I find Greg's further points, on Truth vs Illusion, very interesting ...
> NOW, I know that Illusion is one of the Runes. Its opposite is Truth.
> I wrote that a LONG time ago, before even I understood the real
> meaning of Illusion.
In RQ2 (RQ1 ?) you wrote that "without Illusion, there would be none of us to think we ever were".
I can't see that you've ever contradicted that excellent statement ... :-)
It's "the real meaning of Truth" that seems to have shifted somewhat ...
> This enters into the very difficult question of "what is Truth in
> Glorantha?"
Yes, this is an _extremely_ difficult question ; much, much more difficult than most people imagine.
> As we all know, Truth is subjective. (Who is the true Sun God? What
> is the true Magic? What is the true origin of the universe? Etc. ad
> infinitum.) A nonsubjective Truth exists, in theory.
A God Learner theory. The problem with the nonsubjective Truth of the Core Runes and of God Learner cosmology is manifold (the binary semantic patterns of those Core Runes point to them being a basically Human conceptual matrix, one that many of the Elder Races would reject _entirely_ ; that's one among MANY core problems with these Ideas), but the deepest conceptually meaningful problem (I think) is that the statement "A nonsubjective Truth exists" (essentially meaning, "Truth is Truth") is a subjective statement, and therefore (at least partially) False.
> This would have
> to be an Absolute Truth, which is a mystical concept, and as such is
> (be definition) beyond the ken of mere mortals (who are, by
> definition, finite.)
Absolute Truth isn't a mystical concept from the GL POV, although it _is_ a mystical essence. Including Greg's normal use of the word "transcendent".
> Orenoar is Truth (SNIP) ... we can not know absolute truth, only
> subjective truth.
Yes.
Orenoar is one of the few demonstrably "extra-Gloranthan" Entities, but the less said about that the better.
In Texan, "La Vérité est Ailleurs".
> Tylenea, Illusion, is also gone from this world. This indicates she too
> is unknowable.
> ...
> In other words, we can not know absolute illusion, only subjective
> illusion.
Oh ! Nice one !! :-)
I myself see the difference between Orenoar and Tylenea as : that Orenoar is Being, and Tylenea is Becoming.
> In the same manner, but on a smaller scale, an Illusionist can it his Death
> Sword reality against the Death Sword reality of a Humakti. Which one will
> prove to be right? Well, the most powerful one.
Definitely.
But there are * some * Runic limitations to what you can and can't do with Illusion magic. You cannot make an Illusory Primal Truth. You can't create Illusory Primal Chaos (a logical fallacy). Trying to create an Illusory Boggle would be an inherently self-contradictory magical act. Etc.
> In that sense, Simon, "it is possible to 'spoof' a magical sense with a
> sufficiently sophisticated illusion."
Hurrrmmmm :
OK
An Illusionist gives me a bowl of soup, and I start eating it. Yummy !
Suddenly, some smart-alec in dark sunglasses appears, and tells me : "There is no spoon"
"Do I have soup on my t-shirt ?" is obviously (or not-so-obviously) a game question more than a Gloranthan one, but the pertinence of the question does seem to indicate that the weaker, at least, of Gloranthan Illusions are more like their D&D counterparts than you're suggesting.
Julian Lord
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