If chaos is "cultural" (e.g., if chaos is seen as having different aspects in different societies, or taking different forms in different societies), this and marricide are IMO the #1 prime suspects to be labeled "chaotic behavior" by uz.
For Sartarites, rape, cannibalism and murdering kin are all the stuff of chaos. For uz, marricide and "live" cannibalism are.
> My point was about 'destruction of the universe'. I
>thought I gave plenty of more immediate reasons for
>seeing that (in general) chaotic enemies are
obviously
>worse than non-chaotic ones.
Hmm. I may be obtuse (always a possibility), or I may
be uncommunicative.
The examples you give do *not* convince me that Johnny Troll will say "Holy crap, chaos is a hell of a lot worse than anything else that exists, period."
The point I have in my own brain, at least, is that there are *lots* of bad things out there. A Solar disciple frying trolls and a chaos monster both bad. Neither "category" is "automatically worse" than the other.
Sure, some monsters rape your womenfolk, stuff disease in your home and taint the land -- this is Bad Stuff. A chaos monster doing this is *clearly* worse than a Yelmist doing nothing. However, a Yelmist laughing while he burns your kids, fries your womenfolk and spreads light across the land is *clearly* worse than a swordsnake slithering down the road.
It's a decision made on the *individual* thing, not the "category" -- Big Bad Yelmists are worse than puddly little chaos things.
AFAIK, most Heortlings consider a single broo a "worse enemy" than a ravening horde of, well, trolls. I don't think trolls share that opinion: a horde of invading Sartarites is *IMO,* for trolls, worse than a single broo.
>Unless it becomes an issue.
I definitely agree, and you make a great point about
captives. But I don't think trolls really think about
it much until the broo show up. And you kill them
because they carry nasty diseases and you probably
can't get a ransom. But again, I think these are
*practical* things, not "kill chaos *because* it's the
worst thing in the universe." You kill chaos because
it's bad, really bad, like lots of other really bad
things.
However, uz are *equally* unlike to (IMO) take captives from untrustworthy humans that will likely turn around and shaft them. Are they distinguishing broo as "yuck, chaos, kill it" or as "crap, chaos stuff can't be trusted kill them. Kill that Orlanthi, too, those buggers try and escape. Save the Issaries, we can trust him."
>Likewise if a band of chaotics were spotted moving
>through clan territory in one area and Yelmies in
>another, 9 times out of 10 the trolls would target
>the chaotics first.
Sure, *if* the chaotics are a bigger threat. A couple
of broo in the hunting grounds isn't worse than a band
of Yelmies near the heartland. If the Yelmists are
worse, *IMO* 9 out of 10 trolls want to kill them
first.
Again: Yelm screwed the trolls ABOUT AS MUCH as chaos. Why would trolls automatically overlook this with regards to chaos? Why is chaos, as you seem to argue, the worst thing in the unierse, *unless* the average troll recognizes that chaos = universe destroyed. If Greg sez this is so, of course (and I have the feeling he thinks so from his comments) all of what I'm saying is guff. <grin>
>Uz would show through their actions that in practice
>they very well know the difference between chaotic
and
>non-chaotic opponents.
I think where we disagree is on the level of this --
I'm (possibly mis-)portraying uz as generally ranking
them about the same, while I'm reading you as saying
there's a fair anti-chaos prejudice stronger than
other known prejudices. Chaos is worse than Yelmies,
etc.
In many cases, I think it's a moot point because uz have lots of segments in their society that hate other groups more than another -- Tree-choppers woudl rather kill elves than chaos. IMO.
Not all enemies are equal, but the "values" differ from troll to troll, too!
And frex, because no one noted it: is the Moonbroth thing completely non-canon? FWIW, if the freakin' Praxians can ally with Chaos, the "All chaos is bad chaos" argument seems flawed. But I remember it was TotRM, so it may not be canon...
>know how trolls behave when it becomes an actual
issue
>they have to deal with.
My opinion, then, is that it's a question of
practicality. Uz have a "set" of enemies, and they
chose to smite them based on things like "who's most
dangerous," "who's threatening me," "who can I beat up
and eat without risking anything." They don't have an
ideological basis that says "Kill chaos first, then
yelmies, then elder races, then other humans, etc."
Of *course* the uz realize chaos is different in many ways, it's not just humans or elves or sumthin' with tentacles and stuff. They *know* about things like disease, chaos taint, the untrustworthiness and madness of many races.
But I *don't* think Uz say "Chaos should be killed before anything else, because chaos is really gods-awful and must be slain." I think uz say, "Chaos is something else we hate, which we hate for these reasons, and we kill it when we see it, because we don't like it." For *those* reasons, not the "destroy the universe" thing. It's *just another foe,* like the other foes they *like* to beat up and eat. Again, this is all IMO (and Sandy P's, for that matter, if anyone cares to check the old GDs -- I looked it up, and we're following almost point for point an existing debate! <laugh>).
I *understand* Sartarites to basically follow "Chaos should be killed before anything else, etc." I may be wrong on this, of course.
>I don't think that Chaos being realy, realy bad is an
>amazing, novel discovery that only Sartarites have
>managed to work out.
No, but it's not "It's the worst thing in the
universe, worse than anything else, ew, icky," either,
which is how I'm reading your posts. It's bad. It's
really bad. I don't think (for uz) it's the Worst
Thing Ever, however.
Cheers,
James
Powered by hypermail