>>The original Ramalians were not pig-folk and the Harandings dwelt to >>the Northeast.
David Dunham
> Hmm. That's not how I interpret Shannon's Kingdom of Night part 1 in
> Tradetalk 4: "one faction began to war against the hsunchen Entruli,
> drivingn four of the Entruli tribes -- the Ramali, the Heerili, the
> Maniri, and the Weneli -- out of Kethaela and west into Slontos. Two
> tribes of Entruli, the Drorgalrites and the Vathmai, remained in
> Esrolia."
We have since learned that the Manirian tribes were not Hsunchen but boar-totem proto-Orlanthi, possibly Durevings or related folk. The Drorgalrites were ancestors to the Harandings (or rather, the Harandings were a Drorgalrite group like the Orgorvaltes were a Vingkotling group).
I'm still puzzled whether there was a matriarchal earth culture with a pig focus which marched along down from Dini, whether it preceded the arrival of the Vingkotlings in Kerofinela, or whether it entered or migrated in from southern Peloria (Saird).
Anecdotal evidence is sparse, some sources mention marriages of migrants with local people (Vingkot's Summer and Winter wives, one (presumably the Summer) wife in one source as a daughter of Tada), some evidence that various forms of Ernalda tagged along on the Downland Migration (Barntar born, Durev and Orane...), some evidence that Ernalda, her handwives and their husbands immigrated from Dara Happa.
Assuming the local people theory, the earth folk in Maniria may have been similar to the Votanki in culture and sophistication, with a boar/sow totem rather than the Vingkotling ram totem. (Durev and Barntar seem to have been cattle people.)
> Broken Council Guidebook shows 4 of these six, plus Mraloti. (I think
> the Heerili are actually on the later-sunken portion of Slontos --
> see the Dawn Age map. And we know the Vathmai survived as well.)
The Wenelians probably fled into the Aldryami-forested foothills of the Mislari Mountains when the floods sundered them from the Vingkotlings and Durevings north of Trembling Shore.
> So I believe there were at least 7 groups of pig people in this
> general area. Some of them were theist, and some were animist. The
> distinction might be difficult to see at times, as it's implied in
> Anaxial's Roster that the ancestor of all Ramalian pigs is Mralota.
Given that pigs are quite similar to humans, I can see the Ralian Mraloti pigs (who were part human) fighting a genocidal war against the earth goddess pigs, feasting on them after their human protectors had become too sophisticated to abide totemic relations under the influence of both naval Seshnela (well, transported by the Waertagi) and the Bright Empire.
> It may be particularly easy for pig-folk to jump the fence
> (especially since in our world, some forms of pig husbandry involve
> both domestic pigs and wild boars). Calling all of them "hsunchen"
> might not be strictly accurate (though it might have been so at 0
> ST), but it might have been a close approximation.
Mostly depending on how much you are into the "worlds apart" model. If you are able to shift the totemic shapechanging into either innate or irrelevant magic, hsunchen or not becomes irrelevant, too. The Ramalian pig folk farmers are a borderline case, similar to the southern bear folk of Fronela who became the Jonatings.
Peter Metcalfe
> David Dunham:
>>Hmm. That's not how I interpret Shannon's Kingdom of Night part 1 in >>Tradetalk 4:
> The article is in-voice and not accurate in parts. For example, the
> Entruli are not and have never been Hsunchen. We now know there
> were other peoples in the region such as the Helerings and the
> Lopers.
Are we sure about the Dawn Age presence of the Lopers?
> Arcane Lore p80 gives the following inhabitants of the Hancheros
> Sea from which Sevid and other lands were reclaimed:
> The Waertagi "endless dragons full of demons"
> The Voti, unknown
> The Helerings "in endless waves of blue people"
> Orafoda's Troll Fleet
> The Helering Greatship Sorolovos with tentacles at its maw
> The bird headed tribe, and
> the Helerings once again.
> All of these people will have left their traces in Slontos.
Mostly off-shore, or above Erenplose. We know that the Helerings became land-bound when Heler lost his sea powers, and that they became the third Great Tribe of the Orlanthi. We can also be certain that they were not identical to the Entruli.
>>drivingn four of the Entruli tribes -- the Ramali, the Heerili, the >>Maniri, and the Weneli
> Who are not pig people but worship a number of animal totems.
=46or sure we know the pig totem for the Harandings, the group neighbouring the Kodigvari and the shepherding Jaranings of the Vingkotlings. The Aramites may or may not be related to the Harandings, but they too had a pig totem, and Entra is the sow goddess. There is some evidence that swine played an important role in their husbandry and religion.
We suspect that a hsunchen-Orlanthi conversion occurred, e.g. to the East Ralian Bemuri cattle folk, the southern Fronelan bear folk or parts of the Pendali Basmoli of Seshnela. (Other became regular Likiti Seshnegi, yet others remained hsunchen north of the western end of the Mislari Mts.)
>>-- out of Kethaela and west into Slontos.
> Except that we now have other sources.
Make that "more sources". Shannon drew his original material from the Holy Country article in RQ Companion, which to my knowledge still is a valid source.
> Thunder Rebels shows
> the lands west and southwest of Kethaela during the Late
> Vingkotling Age as:
> Adoren "Occupied by the Durevings"
> Bilon "Occupied by the Durevings"
> Sevid "which Orlanth recovered from the waters and
> gave to Ernalda, his wife"
> Selus "occupied by the Aluthorings"
> Velun no occupants listed
> No mention of the Entruli. One could say that Sevid,
> next to Kethaela, is the home of the Entruli but that
> leaves the lands further west as being occupied by
> non-pig people.
Another in-voice history. Both the Vingkotlings and the Heortlings knew well enough about the Harandings and Aramites, but Thunder Rebels doesn't mention them at all for that period. Proof that it is not a complete source, but rather a source for keeping track of kin.
Note that the Helerings are mostly absent, too.
> If we attempt a match with the first age map of Slontos
> and modern Maniria then the possible linkages are:
> Adoren - Wenelia - Wenelian Islands
> Bilon - Herelia - Wenelian Islands
> Selus - south of the Ryzel - New Fens
> Sevid - north of Wenelia - Wenelia
> Velun - Ramalia - Ramalia
> If one tries to interpret the reclaimed lands as lying further
> east then one runs into problems in that during the period
> in question, Malkion is living in New Malkonwal on the
> borders of the Faralinthor Sea (Revealed Mythologies p12).
I'd locate the reclaimed lands further south, below the Solkathi Sea. The Breaking of the World had the oceans claim many of these lands again, and only few refugees making it to Maniria.
>>The >>distinction might be difficult to see at times, as it's implied in >>Anaxial's Roster that the ancestor of all Ramalian pigs is Mralota.
> So they are. That doesn't mean that Harandings or the Entruli
> are Hsunchen
Here I'm with Peter (but not against David)
> or that the Ramalians were pig-worshippers at the Dawn.
And this too isn't necessary, since we can expect that somewhere in Slontos Helerings and Entruli populations must have mingled. The early Waertagi voyages (even in the Gray Age) appear to have found proto-urban centres in Slontos (similar to Karse?), which seems unlike anything we know about the Harandings or the Wenelians.
>>Calling all of them "hsunchen" might not be strictly accurate >>(though it might have been so at 0 ST),
> Calling the Harandings Hsunchen in 0 ST is even more inaccurate
> than it is now. At the Dawn, the Hsunchen were only found in
> the Shanshan mountains.
I'd like to see your source for this.
To my knowledge, there were Hsunchen or at least sufficiently Hsunchen-like people in Pralorela, Seshnela, Ralios and Fronela during Greater Darkness, Gray Age and Dawn Age. The Praxian Basmoli may have passed through Maniria during that time, too.
I agree that the Harandings (and I suspect that this extends to the Aramites) are of proto-Orlanthi stock and magical background. I don't think that they are Durevings, but rather another of the many Barbarian Belt mammal-totem hill people.
End of Glorantha Digest, Vol 11, Issue 53
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