Re: Carmanians and Viziers

From: Martin Laurie <Svechin_at_...>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 06:01:30 -0000

> >I didn't think you were denying the existence priesthoods, rather
> >emphasising the supremacy of sorcerers over theists in pure
>numbers terms.

> When I talk about sorcerers, I'm talking only about the Vizier
> caste where _most_ of them are sorcerers. No other carmanian is
> meant to practice sorcery because they do not have the moral
> fibre for it.

Agreed. For a non-Vizier to practice sorcery, they are part of the LIE and need to be exterminated.  

> >For me the Viziers have
> >always been a priest caste, not a predominately sorcerous one. Any
> >is a vizier and is therefore subordinate in religious matters to
the Magi.
> >That is how I've seen it.

> The Glorantha-Intro does point out that priests to the gods
> belong to the same caste as that god's worshippers. Therefore
> Priests are not Viziers.

I found the reference. Fair enough, but it does leave me some questions:  

> >This does lead to interesting situations if you have a priest of a
> >cult. Or a Carmanoi cult.
> The Priests of those cults are Hazars and Carmanoi respectively.

Then it would appear that the Vizier caste is indeed more sorcerous than I would have said myself. I'm not a big fan of that, especially as we have written them as being the priest caste as a whole. Oh well.  

> > >Most of which are generally regarded as wizard's tasks in the
> > >and are carried out by sorcerous Viziers in Carmania.

> >But not entirely. For example, the Irripi Ontor cult is strong in
> > >Carmania, and accepted as being of Idovanus yet this scholarly
cult is
> >theistic but still has to be in the Vizier caste.

> I do not believe that Irripi Ontor is "strong" in Carmania.
> He did not even convert the Carmanians to the Lunar Way
> while he still lived and the conversion was accomplished
> by someone who did not worship him.

I would say that among the Aronious households, he is strong. Certainly he has a presence and a growing one at that. He is not widespread and dominant, as you say.  

> I generally see the Irripi Viziers as serving Houses of
> Heartlander origin or the office of the Padishah's Eye
> and not Carmanian Houses. They still have the rank of
> Vizier, but most Carmanians would prefer to have a "proper
> vizier" serving their house.

This to me is a contradiction of the point that priests of gods cannot be Viziers. The reason why I felt it was better if the Vizier caste included priests is to get around this ambiguity.  

> >How does a Humakti warrior-priest who is
> >also a noble fit into this? I think they would be Carmanoi, as
this >is
> >the senior caste.

> Why would Carmanoi worship a war god?

Because they are a warrior people. And though softened by peace, there are still many who are warlike and serve in the Empires armies. These units are led by nobles as they are feudal in origin. Hence the Carmanoi will naturally worship warrior cults. For example, Jaranthir, Bisos or even the Lion God. They have a history of Lion and Bull Shahs who were warriors and worshipped war gods. The lunar houses are the same.

>They are the leaders of the House, not generals.

I disagree. They would have to be generals. They are a feudal people, led by their nobility and as such they would have to have a military aspect. I would agree if you said that few of them were warlike anymore, but to say none of them are seems to be very unlike them and their bloody, violent history.

> If he was any good at war, he would have been raised a Hazar.
> Carmanoi are chosen rather than born.

And they are chosen to lead. All Carmanians are born Hazars. They are then weeded out into different castes as they grow older and show skills. So a warrior who displays great aptitude for command and diversity of thought would be a choice for Carmanoi. Perhaps in times of peace the Carmanoi are chosen more for their economic skills, but they still would have _some_ leaders who were war skilled generals.  

> >As for a warrior-priest, I think they would be Vizier but
> >Vizier-militant.

> As a priest of a war god, they are Hazars.

But the priests of Irripi Ontor are Viziers? Where is the division and on what criteria?  

> >The Hazar caste also shows this division. It has fat merchants,
> > >obsequious bankers and violent killers within its bounds.

> I think the merchants and bankers are largely rent-collectors
> (filfulling their caste obligations of overseeing land but with
> suitable loopholes in the Laws - they are allowed to demand
> more rent from a bank than a cobbler) and that the dirty work
> of handling filthly lucre is done by Pelandan servants.

Handling it yes, but most economic activty would be trade in kind. I think there would have to be a steward function and this could not be performed by Pelandans, as it would be a position of power and trust.  

Martin Laurie

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