Re: Re: Carmanians and Viziers

From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_...>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:38:12 +1200

Martin Laurie:

> > I do not believe that Irripi Ontor is "strong" in Carmania.
> > He did not even convert the Carmanians to the Lunar Way
> > while he still lived and the conversion was accomplished
> > by someone who did not worship him.

>I would say that among the Aronious households, he is strong.

I would doubt this as Aronius has no connection to Irrippi Ontor. IMO their viziers are sorcerers just like everybody else's (except they go for Makaebus etc.) as that is the Carmanian Way.

The Aronius households (by which I assume you mean Lunarized Carmanians) are IMO the type that "ignores the Lunar message of oneness, preferring to seek Idovanus through the tried and true methods of light and darkness" p121. In short, they use the surface truths of the Lunar phases to deepen their own understanding of the Truth.

> > I generally see the Irripi Viziers as serving Houses of
> > Heartlander origin or the office of the Padishah's Eye
> > and not Carmanian Houses. They still have the rank of
> > Vizier, but most Carmanians would prefer to have a "proper
> > vizier" serving their house.

>This to me is a contradiction of the point that priests of gods
>cannot be Viziers.

What it actually says is that Priests of the Lesser Gods are not Viziers but members of another caste depending on their status and sex. If a Hazar becomes a Priest of Humakt, he remains a Hazar. The priesthood of the lesser gods have the caste of that god's worshippers. I do not think it feasible for Priests of those gods to become Viziers as that means they now have to act like viziers and give up all benefits of their old caste (which would be suicide for a priest of Humakt - give up his weapons and prance about in a Vizier Costume).

Now Magi as members of the Vizier Caste are not sorcerers but

"priests" of Idovanus.  So the Carmanians admit that viziers
need not be sorcerers.  This creates a loophole for viziers
to worship other gods.  There's no point in them worshipping
Gods of other castes as they have their own priesthoods. There's no point in them worshipping scribe deities like Buserian and Irrippi Ontor as Carmanian sorcerous training, as all Carmanians know, is superior to those of mere gods and is grounded in their cultural tradition. So Viziers are normally sorcerers.

There are IMO a couple of circumstances in which Viziers might be found worshipping gods. One is the worship of cults like Atyar, Ikadz or Valind for magical warfare that can't be easily duplicated by the sorcerous Viziers.

The second circumstance is what happens if a Heartland family (ie Darjiinian, Darsenite, Rinliddi, Dara Happan, Lunar, or Sylilan but not Pelandan or Arrolians!) settles in the Western Reaches (perhaps after acquiring land there for some reason). This would have occurred as long ago as the Blood King's War when Lunar Veterans were settled on conquered land and would still happen today. A Heartland family might even be Carmanians who went east, went native or lunar and then moved back to Carmania.

The Heartlanders although not being Carmanians would adopt the outward pretences of Carmanian Castes to fit in and to acquire legal identity in the Carmanian Courts. In this way they can step outside their front door without being cut to pieces as a servant of the Lie.

Now the prime method for the Carmanians to determine what caste a foreigner is through his deity. Worshippers of War Gods are Hazars while those of Ruler Gods are Karmanoi. Now these Heartland Houses would not have the same desire for sorcerous Viziers as the Carmanians do. So their scribes would worship Buserian or Irrippi Ontor (but perhaps even the Pelandan Logos) and be considered of the Vizier caste.

>The reason why I felt it was better if the Vizier
>caste included priests is to get around this ambiguity.

What's so ambiguous about having a priest of Humakt being in the Hazar caste? Caste means a lot more to Carmanians than just a label in their census form.

> > Why would Carmanoi worship a war god?

>Because they are a warrior people.

They are a Malkioni people and Malkion has created a strict division between the duties of Lords and Soldiers. Although even the anally conservative Brithini bend the rules and have their Talars fight in battle, I still feel that Malkioni cultures with their emphasis of traditions and prior precedents would make distinctions between the Lord and the Knight and that this would also exist in Carmania.

Now I do not intend for the Karmanoi to be Bishop Odo clones and say "I'm not carrying an edged weapon so I'm not breaking the prohibition on the shedding of blood". But I do feel that Karmanoi would face certain prohibitions on what they may or may not do in battle and worshipping a Hazar God would be beyond the pale.

> > If he was any good at war, he would have been raised a Hazar.
> > Carmanoi are chosen rather than born.

>And they are chosen to lead. All Carmanians are born Hazars. They
>are then weeded out into different castes as they grow older and show
>skills. So a warrior who displays great aptitude for command and
>diversity of thought would be a choice for Carmanoi.

Their caste is chosen at puberty. If a warrior displays command and diversity of thought then he would be made an officer, _not_ a Karmanoi.

> > As a priest of a war god, they are Hazars.

>But the priests of Irripi Ontor are Viziers?


>Where is the division and on what criteria?

The division is that _worshippers_ of Irrippi Ontor are Viziers. What other caste would they belong to?

>Handling it yes, but most economic activty would be trade in kind. I
>think there would have to be a steward function and this could not be
>performed by Pelandans, as it would be a position of power and trust.

I think they would use their adherence to the truth to find out whether a Pelandan (as a forced servant of the lie) has been fiddling the books. Saves the hassle of learning about filthy lucre.

--Peter Metcalfe

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