Re: Re: Jeff's analysis of the Whitewall sources

From: Joerg Baumgartner <joe_at_...>
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:45:11 +0100 (CET)

Jeff and Joerg still in synchronous orbits, it seems.
>> The Volsaxi: who exactly? DP:LoT makes participation of the three
>> other Volsaxar tribes fairly limited. Or possibly all Curtali, Bacofi and
>> Sylangi loyal to Broyan's cause were withdrawn from their lands by
>> Broyan's muster, leaving the Lunar-lovers in power outside of the
>> city?

> The latter makes a lot of sense to me and would explain why those
> tribes end up under radically pro-Lunar regimes.

So basically we are left to make up the non-Lunar tribal leaders holed up in Whitewall? That's a lot of supporting cast...

>> Basically the Tarshite goal. The "seaport Corflu" scheme appears
>> to have been carried by Oslir Valley merchants. The Tarshite cartel
>> goes for the better trade routes.

> Yep. From the Lunar side, this campaign is filled with political
> intrigue, weird religious issues, and a hitherto unknown level of
> conflict between the Tarshite leadership and the Imperial leadership.

That conflict basically determines Fazzur's vita. The hitherto unknown level of conflict probably is Tatius striking back on behalf of the Assiday family - the Tarshite ambitions have been in the open since Phargentes ruled the Provinces. Euglyptus' death in 1613 started the Tarshite dominance in Sartarite affairs, but the Siege of Whitewall returns the Dara Happan faction into the ramplight.

>>> At this point, Broyan is "the last Orlanthi" king.  I assume
>>> that he is mythically identifying himself as Vingkot - the sole
>>> king of the Orlanthi.

>> That smacks of Lokamaydanism, with all the negative consequences.

> Lokomoko is one of my favorite characters in Glorantha, but I really
> disagree. Broyan is behaving in a perfectly traditionalist manner -
> he truly is the "last Orlanthi king". Which should give him access
> to a lot of magical support that the king of the Volsaxi wouldn't
> normally get.

Ok. Someone had to make this accusation, though. And probably also some faction during the siege.

>> If Broyan really accepted this place in the Lunar scheme, then >> the entire Iceland trouble is as much his fault as it is Tatius'.

> Yes and no. I think that Broyan comes to a realization during the
> siege of Whitewall. He can't *beat* the Lunars at Whitewall and
> they will win. But there might still be a way out of this - he must
> become the Hidden King. "This is the Great Darkness. Prepare for
> the fight."

We ought to run this idea past Greg.

> By accepting this place in the Lunar scheme, Broyan creates a high-
> risk opportunity for the Orlanthi - they have the very best set
> of "defeat the Great Darkness" myths out there. In a way, his
> actions are roughly analogous to that of Vargast Redhand - except he
> doesn't have to die.

Apart from the Kitori mishap four years later.

>> Plus, Vingkot was somewhat successful against Dara Happans (and
>> trolls), but "failed miserably" against Chaos. Broyan's Bat
>> stunt remedied the Chaos defeat, but in the end Dara Happan magics
>> brought about the downfall.

> Again, not necessarily. I am thinking that ritually it was
> necessarily for Whitewall to fall and Orlanth to die in order to do
> the really big mojo magic in the Battle of Iceland, the Boat Planet
> and the Dragonrise.

That indicates some very high level magical research in Whitewall. So we have a secondary scene at Karstanstead with its Derensev Library. Or, given their specialisation for oratory, possibly also oral tradition, a circle of sages in besieged Whitewall.

>> Another possibility is that a significant amount of Larnsti broke
>> up with Andrin and went to Whitewall to support the high King of the
>> Volsaxar tribes, thereby establishing the tradition of the Larnsti guard.

> This are good ideas. I just don't know enough about the Larnsti to
> really speculate. Whose idea were they? Greg's or Peter's?

The Larnsti were Peter's idea, but AFAIK Peter just used them as a means of royal succession among the Hendreiki, and later as training ground for the Andrinic Sheriffs. Peter, now you're here, could you explain your intentions?

I don't know who included the Larnsti

> Is Greg on this list? Should he be?

You could of course invite Greg. Somehow I think that Greg might prefer to read only an edited version of these proliferating discussions, though.

>> Apart from that, we come to the Second Son mystery of I Fought We >> Won. Another thing which may have helped trigger the Fimbulwinter.

> Yep. As you can see, I am beginning to run with the idea that
> Whitewall was a really elaborate Orlanthi ritual to bring on the
> Great Darkness. The ironic thing is that the Lunars were happily
> playing along with the ritual.

This is basically predating the core of the Dragonrise conspiration by several years.

>> Personally, I'd like to see some of these pet Heortlings as a main
>> source of hidden support for the defenders of Whitewall. Willandring
>> Clever-Kennings, possibly.

> That is a really good idea. Joerg - part of the reason I think the
> Vingkot association for Broyan is so important is that it appeals to
> the core identity of the Orlanthi. Even more than Orlanth. The
> Vingkotlings remained Vingkotlings even after Orlanth and the gods
> died. They - through Heort - defeated the Great Darkness and
> brought back the gods.

>> On a none-Heortling tangent, it would be an interesting game to be >> Tatius' errand boy in the Empire [...]

> Yep. This would make a great Lunar adventure as well. Part of the
> reason I think we should bring Martin Laurie into this at some point.

And the developers of Unspoken Word's Tarsh sources.

>> And I can't help viewing this as a magicked-up Broyan dangling on
>> Tatius' fishing line having swallowed both bait and hook by
>> assuming the Vingkot role.

> Or maybe it was the reverse - I think that Broyan knew exactly what
> he was doing.

Wouldn't that make him quite un-Orlanthi? I prefer realisation at some turning point, and working his way from there.

>> On a very abstract level, this is a game of chess with augments >> between Tatius and Broyan. [...]

> This is exactly my view. A magical chess-battle.

And I'd like to see the game board, somewhere...

>> John, if you want some "military advice", how about crossposting
>> some questions to the Glorwar and Glorantha-Board (Dragon Pass,
>> Nomad Gods) lists? I'm sure those wargamers out there have
>> additional ideas and details!

> I wouldn't bring the wargamers in yet.

I suppose some may already be on board by now. ;-)

>> I know of no "Orlanth held out the siege" myths other than Starkval
>> defending Aedin's Wall. There are a number of Greater Darkness
>> survival sagas which did just this, though - some of the stronger
>> ones like Karse (Pelaskites) or Nochet (Esrolvuli) outside of direct
>> Heortling experience.
>> One possibility could be to study these cases, or Ezkankekko
>> holding out against Palangio's siege during the Gbaji Wars.

> Yep. There is also the Battle of the Verge - which might well be
> the direct inspiration for Broyan. I am certain there are numerous
> Vingkot myths as well.

So one side project is to develop a Vingkotssaga to be exploited in heroquests?

>> RuneQuest Adventures #4 makes some suggestions.

> OK, I probably am going to get in trouble for suggesting this, but I
> recommend against using the RQA 4 material initially. First off, I
> think too much of it has been "Gregged".

Heck, much of it was "Joerged" when I got it. And that with the old picture of Broyan that Jeff and I had in mind back in 1997.

> Second, I think we are
> probably better off coming up with an overview that relies of KoS,
> OiD and other published works - and then retrofit what we can of RQA
> 4.


> Besides, I think that we really need to rethink the Kitori.

A recurring topic on all of the smaller groups I am involved in. I'll dig up a summary of my Kitori theories from the Wilmskirk and Pais_Saint lists.

>> I also doubt that Broyan had Larnsti magic himself, so we can
>> assume that the Larnsti were able to take along non-Larnsti if
>> this was their way out.

> You don't think that is the source of Heroic Escape 12M2?

I'd like to regard that as a stand-alone feat, or, as stated before, a magical road quest walked without magic.

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