> But if you're a malkioni... all you have is FAITH.
> > In Gloranthan terms, this is an incorrect statement. It is the statement of an
> outsider. And by using the word, we load it with the baggage of our language
> /// Yeah I do. With gusto. With all my luggage, to get myself and my players
> feel the world I describe, react to it faster and easier. I don't need or want
> to build my world from scratch. Of course I bring to it my luggage.
With all due respect to Greg's position, which I agree with, French words do not travel with the same kinds of luggage as English ones. :)
They are far more malleable for starters, so that it's usually less difficult to use an existing French word to vehicle a completely Gloranthan concept than it would be with the corresponding English one. ;)
> > In fact, as a Malkioni, more than the modern term of "faith" is known: Joy
> > is an experience they also have requirements: right action etc is necessary to
> properly live int he world
> /// Joy, Right Action, all are facets of Faith. But what about the rokari, who
> deny the power of Joy ? I think blind obedience to the Laws doesn't make a good
> enough substitute.
"So speaketh this fool heretick Carteau, in darknesse, ignorence, and vainglory !!
Fie! Fie! 'pon the cuning trikery of this deceit and divill-worke !!
For what is Law but the glorious and bright Faith made adamant and tall, for the righteous to revere, obey, and inforce ? And may the Faithless scumme to ever cower and flee before this Eternalle Goodnesse, in there Fear and Loathing of the Almighty Workes of the Invisible Creator of all Cosmicke Order and Bountie !!!"
> > > I do think that contemporary, western intellectuals like us
> > > > don't have any idea what FAITH is.
> I would correct this to say that contemporary Westerners do not have a clue
> about what Spirituality is, whether faith-based or not.
You would in my opinion be mistaken to assume this as a general truth.
The modern world does not encourage spirituality, quite the opposite in fact -- but as Greg has been suggesting, it is nevertheless a core element of our being, so that we will all of us be touched by it, even though we may not always recognise it when we see it.
> It is rather amusing
> to see all the effort tha Dawkins and his ilk pour into condemning religion
> when all they exhibit is a loathing for Monotheism, as if that constituted
> the only modern expression of spirituality
I agree, it's hilarious !! -- albeit in a black humour sort of way :/
> /// OK, but I wanted to be more specific : we westerners have lost Faith as part
> of our "cultural keyword". Intellectual like us can blabber about budhism,
> shamanism and whatever, but the truth is most of us haven't set foot in a church
> or sung a sincere prayer since we were kids... Thus my "blind man" metaphor
> below.
Speak for yourself, not everyone has such an abstract view of things, and not everyone has crossed out Faith and Spirituality from their cultural keyword !!!
And I'm sorry, even though there is a certain kind of intellectual arrogance in the modern West that holds itself as apart from and superior to spirituality, and anything associated with it -- spirituality cannot be banished away by the application of logic or intelligence, nor are intelligence or logic incompatible with spirituality.
There are many pathways to spirituality, some harder than others, but we all of us start in the same place as newborn toddlers, with the same gifts, and the same powers to move along that pathway.
> When I read what we say about faith, it strikes me as blind men discussing
> colors. We cannot imagine what it means to live by, to feel FAITH.
I'd say it's more a blindfold than an actual blindness -- and a blindfold can be removed. :)
> I've just read a book about the Bible that
> says that freedom from faith is an illusion, that man cannot live without faith
> of a kind, whether it's in "scientific facts" (which are as much an intellectual
> construct as anything else), in him/herself, etc. I find this idea interesting,
> and probably true.
The same basic idea is in Plato. Plus ça change...
> Back to Glorantha : in malkioni lands, Faith comes from KNOWLEDGE.
> > and your practice, and the miracle of life unfolding before your eyes and in
> > your daily life
> /// Exactly. Every moment, every facet of creation is a Wonder.
hmmm, in Glorantha, the spiritual aspects of things are as far as I understand them derived from the Ultimate (whatever that is), instead of from the magical methods -- although actual Gloranthan magicians might be blithely unaware of this !!
A typical Malkioni approach to Faith and Knowledge is likely to be quite simply that the contents of Faith are just a kind of Knowledge, and vice-versa.
The related spiritualities actually transcend this conceptual limitation :)
Julian Lord
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