P>>> Genertela Book describes it as a city in God Forgot and a Brithini Outpost. J>> As of 1621. P> No, from a source published in 1988 and since gregged on this point by a more recent and comprehensive source.
I'll wait for the latest word when the Genertela Book information will be re-released as part of the expanded Genertela information.
(A couple of nitpickers going over the material before publication would be a good idea, though...)
P>>> I don't see how Refuge can be an Aeolian city with Brithini overlords simply because I don't see why the Aeolians would tolerate having Brithini overlords in their largest city. J>> I'm not sure Refuge has to be a purely Aeolian city. HeroQuest gives us two alternative religions for the Esvulari, both of which are well suited for people cohabitating with Brithini.
P> The actual creed of Esvular is the Aeolian church. People worshipping the Unknown God Church or the No God Church aren't Aeolians but a fringe minority - Heroquest actually presented them as a common magic religion.
Making similar noises about the Aeolians, with misapplied worship and all those things reduced with HQ2.
P> I cannot imagine how a society based on the worship of venerating pagan deities can somehow have people saying "There is no god" or "We do not know who this God Bloke is" as a valid alternative beliefs to their revealed truth.
Let's look at Second Age developments. In 925, the Durengard scroll accuses the Esvulari of betraying the Zistorite project, and states they are ruled by their talari. The author doesn't use the term talari for any other nobility (but doesn't refer to Malkioni nobility, either).
> And that leaves unsaid why the Esvulari would tolerate strange people ruling their biggest city.
The same could be asked about the Loskalmi with regard to Sog City (also one of their holiest cities...).
The obvious reason why to tolerate such a minority group in an important role is that they have a magical claim to that role.
BTW, what are the chances that Jon Barat is another name for Refuge? Nowadays the city isn't especially hidden, but the name suggests some serious sheltering having taken place there.
The Iron Wars may have been the occasion to make a city out of a small colony of Brithini... are there any mentions of Refuge prior to the Hendriki attacks a few years later?
Whatever the protection offered then, it was not enough to withstand serious Hendriki magic later, but enough to kill the first Hendriki king attempting to break it.
>> Effectively, we get Esvulari ruled by the Ingareens and Esvulari ruled by the Hendriki, unless we get Esvulari overthrowing the yoke of overlords.
P> Except there is no evidence of the Esvulari being ruled by the God Forgotten
Not in the sources for the Third Age. During the Zistorite experiment, I would expect that the Esvulari had to answer requests from the Clanking City. That's not the same as requests from Talar Hold, though.
P> the evidence for the Hendriki ruling the Esvulari amounts to little more than they exacted tribute from them at some stage or another.
That is the extent to which most Kethaelan overlordship worked, only with certain prohibitions added by e.g. Palangio. Belintar's reforms bite a lot deeper than Ezkankekko's claims or even Aventus' foreigner laws (which applied to tribes like the Hurlant or communities like Pelaskite Sklar as well).
The incident of Delelsus the Spellman, the brass horse rider from southernmost Esvular who wanted to be king, takes place in 1190. Our disagreement here is whether this guy is an Aeolian or rather a God Forgotten, not that he ended up gathering the Esvulari (of whichever definition) under his banner. (And perhaps whether he wanted to be King of the Hendriki or rather King of Heortland, without any Hendriki rites and trappings.)
http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Delelsus
J>> The Aeolian Church is the Esvulari guide to survival along the Storm Barbarians.
J>> The Unknown God Church sounds like the original Esvulari creed.
P> I seriously cannot entertain the notion that the Aeolian Church merely an interpretation of basic Esvulari beliefs to enable them to survive the Storm Barbarians. It is revealed truth and stands apart from the foolishness of the God Forgotten.
Funny that I of all people stand accused of arguing against this... ;) I don't argue against the Aeolian Church as perceived Truth among its adherents when they managed to remain true to it even under the influence of the Rightness Malkioni from Slontos.
In God Forgot, the reverse would be proven true - the God Learners with their evangelistic zeal chose not to spread the word of Makan to the Leftarm Islanders, but instead channel their ways into inventiveness. I don't see inventiveness and following the Revelations of Now as compatible. But I don't see any evidence for Makanism in God Forgot afterwards, either (except among the Aeolians by adoption of parts of the Abiding Book). This makes it likely that the people there were made part of an experiment. The Jogrampur experiment took place around the same time.
The Esvulari did inherit the government structure from the Slontan invaders, e.g. in Leskos which is described as a (formerly) Slontan fortress sheltering an Esvulari and Pelaskite city in 925.
P> The Esvulari follow the Aeolian Church not because it enables them to survive among the Orlanthi but because it is _True_.
The homeland description also states that the Esvulari have followed other religious truths, including earlier western and eastern influences.
Earlier western influences would have been Arkatism (which was heavily persecuted by the Hendriki by 600), the Jrusteli creed (which was fused into the Aeolian Church), possibly the Revelations of Now. (I'm sort of curious about the eastern influences - Waha is not an option, so it must have been draconic, Teshnan, Kralori or Seleran ways they adopted.)
>> The homeland description makes the Esvulari the people whom god forgot.
>> "The people of Dawn Age Esvular had no religion." (HQ1, p.44)
> Except that the Esvulari and the God Forgotten are now distinct peoples if they were ever once the same.
I agree that they are distinct now. The Aeolian Church has bloomed under Belintar's favoritism, and has created enough of a separate culture that in the Kethaelan cities ouside of either Esvular and God Forgot immigrants from Esvular will be viewed differently from immigrants from God Forgot, and that they won't mix.
>> RuneQuest Companion p.25
>> "These folk are ruled by ancients using the Brithini forms of life and government. Their ruler is called the Talar, and he is advised by wizards, guarded by staunch soldiers, and supported by loyal farmers."
> Which is a reference to God Forgot, not Esvular.
Yes. Esvular was not mentioned in 1983.
But the God Forgotten are not depicted as ancients, only their rulers (as of post-1616). The same assumption was made for Refuge in the Genertela Box.
The Aeolians weren't taken seriously before 1995, and Esvulari did not appear in official publications prior to Hero Wars.
> Reputation - where is Refuge known as a den of iniquity and thieves?
Men of the Seas.
> As for adapting Thieves World to Glorantha, it requires a large amount of rewriting of core material to adapt a so-so fantasy world such that I think it far better to let Thieves World be Thieves World and allow Refuge its own gloranthan weirdness. I mean I read the Thieves World books (the first two and one much later which made no sense in a Herbetsque way) and I can't recall anything compelling about the material to make it a must-have in glorantha.
What's compelling about the material for use in a Gloranthan campaign are the character concepts of the main actors, and their development as things change in their region. It doesn't take that much work to translate the character concepts of the recurring backbones of the story into well-rounded Gloranthan characters. Their feuding and scheming is a rich resource for scenario hooks.
>> Aeolians and Esvulari has been used interchangeably. Not entirely correctly.
>> Esvular and God Forgot has been used for the same region. Not necessarily wrongly.
> You have yet to give any evidence that Esvular and God Forgot are used
> for the same region other than by pointing to sources which were written
> before Esvular was introduced.
HeroQuest 1st edition page 44 makes it clear that the Esvulari are the people who lost their god.
We both seem to agree that the Aeolian Church makes the difference between the Esvulari of Heortland and the God Forgotten, the argument is merely about whether and if, when and how far they split in the overlapping zone of God Forgot and Heortland influences.
> As it is the differences between the Esvular and God Forgot are so great that even the Hendriki could tell them apart. Read the description of Esvular life in HeroQuest Voices. Do they sound like God Forgotten to you?
No, they sound like Aeolians living among Orlanthi to me. Vizel in the 1620ies definitely is not part of God Forgot, and most likely hasn't ever been, however weakened the Hendriki may have been in their conflicts with EWF and God Learners.
>>> I don't see any indication that the Hendriki were taking orders from Ezkankekko. >> Or that Ezkankekko gave them any.
>> Heortling Mythology, p.128 / Esrolia, land of 10k goddesses, p.56 >> "The Peoples subject to the Shadow Tribute were called the Shadowlands or the Kitori Empire. It was an empire of tribute-collection, without governors, government, central laws or rule. >> [...] >> But all acknowledged Ezkankekko's sacred authority: a carefully circumscribed and ceremony authority, but authority nonetheless."
> That is about the Heortlings of the Silver and Dawn Ages when we are discussing the Hendriki of the late Imperial and early Modern Ages. The Shadow Tribute was abandoned after the Tax Slaughter of 578 ST
In Kerofinela, where the priesthood created a new way of government without high kings just at this time, the tribute was not reinstituted.
When the Hendriki seceded from the nascent EWF, they renewed their alliance with Ezkankekko. There is no information whether this involved the Shadow Tribute or not. I am inclined to think that it was.
> and only makes an re-appearance when the Kitori levy it on the Volsaxi through Holy Country trickery.
What's so interesting about this event is that the Only Old One was dead at the time. Things may have been different while he still was alive.
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