> P>>> Genertela Book describes it as a city in God Forgot and a Brithini Outpost.
> J>> As of 1621.
> P> No, from a source published in 1988 and since gregged on this point by a more recent and comprehensive source.
Last I checked this is still the case. The rulers of Refuge are indeed Brithini using the old caste system of Brithos. The city has a population of 5K. Refuge is quite distinct from its hinterland and not part of (non-Brithini) Bandori county, it is instead actually part of God Forgot. However, the rulers can not claim an uninterupted rule - it has been ruled by Esvularings, Zistorites, and even Orlanthi upon occasion.
Refuge certain existed in the Second Age (unlike Casino Town it is on Greg's Second Age maps).
> P> The actual creed of Esvular is the Aeolian church. People worshipping the Unknown God Church or the No God Church aren't Aeolians but a fringe minority - Heroquest actually presented them as a common magic religion.
>
> Making similar noises about the Aeolians, with misapplied worship and all those things reduced with HQ2.
The Aeolian sect - at least in the Third Age - is supported by the rulers of the Esvularings and is what most members of the Esvularing tribe believes. It also has enclaves in many cities in Heortland and in Esrolia.
> BTW, what are the chances that Jon Barat is another name for Refuge? Nowadays the city isn't especially hidden, but the name suggests some serious sheltering having taken place there.
Could be. If I look up my Dawn Age maps that might resolve the question, but that requires some hunting.
> > Reputation - where is Refuge known as a den of iniquity and thieves?
>
> Men of the Seas.
Calling Refuge a den of iniquity and thieves is pretty meaningless. So is Karse, Pavis, Corflu and pretty much any coastal city we care to talk about.
> > As for adapting Thieves World to Glorantha, it requires a large amount of rewriting of core material to adapt a so-so fantasy world such that I think it far better to let Thieves World be Thieves World and allow Refuge its own gloranthan weirdness. I mean I read the Thieves World books (the first two and one much later which made no sense in a Herbetsque way) and I can't recall anything compelling about the material to make it a must-have in glorantha.
Thieves World had lovely maps. Absolutely lovely. However, the RPG supplement has been out of print for well over 20 years and I don't really feel any need to rely on it for any discussions of Refuge.
> > You have yet to give any evidence that Esvular and God Forgot are used
> > for the same region other than by pointing to sources which were written
> > before Esvular was introduced.
>
> HeroQuest 1st edition page 44 makes it clear that the Esvulari are the people who lost their god.
Lots of people lost their god. The Esvularings were one of the small wretched survivors of the Darkness, scratching out a miserable existence around Mount Passant. Their god died in the Gods War but were in contact with the God Forgotite atheists and the Theyalans both. They claim their cultural hero saw through the weaknesses and blindness of their neighbors and discovered the Truth.
FWIW, the God Learners had quite a bit of contempt for the Esvularing philosophical pragmatism and adaptability which I believe comes over in HHP.
Jeff
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