I agree with a lot of Herve's points.
Personally I thought there was a lot of Medieval Italy in the superficial look and feel of the city-states of central Safelster, as written up c. Genertela Crucible of the Hero Wars. The analogy is imperfect of course, because "the Church" is very different. Also whilst there certainly was religious and political intrigue in these cities, there wasn't anything quite like fractious Arkati philosophies/conspiracy theories behind it.
To explain my views on Medievalism in MRQ's Fronela, I think quite a lot of the Medievalism here comes when you get to Sog City. Also the explanation of caste (and positions within castes) in the Fronela book comes at the subject through the prism of mid-late Medieval feudalism, and describes a society with similar social strata, only with the major twist that social advancement is largely based on merit rather than birthright.
I would not have thought that a book on Fronela written by Moon Design in 2012 would do this.
Within Hrestolism I always wondered about the extent to which the son of a pig farmer spent his time in the labouring caste in the same way as the son of a squire, the son of a scrivener or the son of a Count? (Are Hrestoli clergy celibate, or do they have sons too?). Was it easier for the son of a minor lord to do their time as as someone's page rather than hewing wood and drawing water, for example? Likewise were acolythists like interns (who eventually expected to be wizards in their own right), or was it a skilled trade that someone might pursue throughout their working life?
I think I know what Herve means about sorcery's atheist roots. Whilst it is literally true of the Brithini, does this mean that there is no veneration or worship of any other kind (other than furtive paganism) amongst either the Hrestoli or Rokari? (Henotheists and Stygians have their lesser or 'visible' gods to fall back on -- or do they?) Also how can one have atheist 'liturgists'? (Unless the point is that there are no liturgists in the New West).
Do most Third Age Malkioni see themselves as atheists in the way that, say, Brithini do?
That said I can see what Herve means about even monotheists from the West seeming like atheists to people from the barbarian belt-- and about atheism being so incomprehensibly weird, and wrong, to Gloranthan theists.
Richard Hayes
To: WorldofGlorantha_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 12 December 2011, 21:07
Subject: Re: More Westerners' stiff
De: Richard Hayes <richard_hayes29_at_K5W5JRU_IwvOzZK1DuBzw_VkRipwebOwUR8Nj9YD5xqVVwxaXFsBOfEQ4T_8Dg6MtFY2yFelplgKFtnMpfq1BD_oeA.yahoo.invalid>
- Tales of the Reaching Moon 12, which has cast a long shadow over my personal view of the West (but undeniably built on Genertela: Crucible of the Hero Wars too)
/// Yep, same for me. Still influences my feel of the West today. My Seshnela still feels more carolingian than anything else, though Loskalm is Something Else, with no earthly reference. As for Safelster, the rule is Anything Goes - it's the weirdest mix, with the "long shadow" of Arkat looming over all.
I'm not sure MRQ's treatment of Fronela didn't retain some of the Medievalism too.
/// Doesn't feel that way, but the Jrustela book is based on strong ideas already written before (the land's conquest, war against the timinits, etc) and developped around them, so it fits well with the New West. The Zistorela book describes a truly alien place.
Ironically caste is one of the larger anomalies in this analogy -- the 4 - 5 castes of Malkionism at this time doesn't quite fit the three 'castes' of Medieval Europe. It doesn't quite fit Hinduism's main 4-5 castes either. To me the castes of medieval Japan (in the form set out in Land of the Ninja) possibly offer the closest analogy of all.
/// Depends. In my Seshnela, the serfs are "below caste", not even dronari. They don't have a full dronar's Rights but neither his Duties. So that makes 5 de facto castes, plus women. In Fronela, the Men of All are somewhere between the Guardians and the Wizards, so again five castes. In the asharan church, there are only three (no zzaburi). The caste ideal still varies a lot from region to region, scola to scola today !
Now the West seems to be going back to something more like the neo-platonist roots that might have grown to fruition in the late 1970s or early 1980s. Though maybe those who were really there have a different tale to tell
/// What I like most with this new west is that it goes back to its atheist roots. Imagine how alien, how absurd must this culture feel to all theists, whether orlanthi or solar : these guys say you must follow abstract, immutable laws that no God incarnates or demonstrates. I think the word "meldek" means "atheist", not "sorcerer" in its prime meaning. Sorcery is just weird magics, but atheism is weird living.
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