>Probably a better question is "what was understood by the status of
>immortal _at that time_?"
>According to the Monomyth (which surely isn't too wrong about the
>Malkioni mythistory, given that it was the Jrusteli researchers' basic
>assumption), Death had entered the world. This was the Early Storm Age /
>Late Golden Age, after all, the time when Umath rampaged and slew Aerlit
>and Warera, in a way sufficiently meaningful to orphan young Malkion.
But the appearance of Death is the sign of the world having devolved into mortality. Since Malkion the Immortal is a product of the Immortal World, it follows that he would have existed before Death came into the world.
Secondly Umath did not slay Aerlit and Warera. You are thinking of Choralinthor's parents: Esrola and Faralinthor. Thus Malkion had no reason to be affected by orphanage. Lastly you ignore the Monomyth when it claims that Malkion lived in the Golden Age which would be _before_ Death entered the world.
Me>> Which is not what Zzabur remembers it, namely that Malkion the
>> Immortal is a devolution of a higher Malkion who is a devolution
>> of Malkion the Creator.
>How sure can we be that the Brithini identify the Creator with Malkion?
>Semantics alert, but isn't Malkion the Lawgiver only an aspect of the
>Creator?
Enclosure #1 talks about the belief of the Fronelans in part. In particular "Estrekor stressed that [...] Fronelan Malkion was not the true Creator but rather the evil Lord of Matter." Elsewhere the God of the Fronelans (this is second age stuff) is called FroNalinko and Fron Im Malakinus.
So the Fronelans evidently believed that Malkion was the Creator who devolved himself into Malkion the Impersonal Force who devolved itself into Malkion the Immortal. I do not believe that this is a God Learner Error and was something that the Brithini themselves had known.
>* Also note that the fathering of Waertag and the others happened in the
>Golden Age of Logic, when the "primal men" of the Kingdom of Logic
>weren't yet bound into the Caste system (defined through the sons of
>Malkion, after all), and probably had the full range of Logic to their
>hands.
I do not believe this. The Caste system was established before the Gods War in the Golden Age of the Kingdom of Logic. And the Waertagi do not make an impression until the lesser darkness.
>> 3: Immortals embodying those forces: Ehilm, Worlath, Humct etc plus
>> Malkioni and his sons.
>Count in Warera, Aerlit, Britha, Vadela, Seshna, Basmol, Ifftala, Pendal
>and the other deities encountered by the early Malkioni.
No. They were not around in the Golden Age and would not be recognized as immortals by the Brithini IMO. What the Seshnegi make of them is another story but beyond the ambit of the argument.
>> Now does a Malkioni when he thinks of a God, does he think of an
>> entity in stage 2 (ie impersonal forces) or stage 3 (ie humanoid
>> immortals)?
>Your average non-wizard probably won't really see the difference.
Which is beside the point as we are dealing with what the Brithini believe.
>Wizards which summon deities to do their bidding probably prefer to deal
>with the humanoid immortal rather than with the Rune power.
But do they believe that the humanoid immortal is the _same_ as the rune power? I do not think so.
>> Is it thus credible for Zzabur to say that he is the
>> equal of the Gods? If the Gods are really Impersonal Forces then
>> IMO the answer is no.
>While Zzabur may be deeply into Magic, he seems to retain other links.
Which are?
>Thus your average deity is not that impersonal (no more so than Zzabur
>himself) to the Malkioni.
That is not the topic. Zzabur and most Brithini sees the Gods as Impersonal Forces and not humanoid immortals. Would Zzabur think himself as being equal to the Gods in such a case?
>> The problem is that the Brithini are fanatically unchanging and we
>> can be sure that what Zzabur believed in the year -14, 825 ST (when
>> the sun went down), the Brithini still believe today and certainly
>> did when Zzabur was still around.
>IMO Zzabur underwent a "lapse" in status following the uncertainty after
>I Fought We Won, and recovered only when prompted by the havoc Hrestol
>and his friend wrought in Brithos.
I don't think so. He alone of the Immortals has resisted the degeneration of the Cosmos and stayed true to the ideals of Logic. For him to have a lapse in status which would imply mortaloty just does not ring true.
>> Since Zzabur only vanished in
>> 929 ST (and unconfirmed reports of his existance since that time
>> are known), it seems resonable to assume that the Brithini PoV has
>> not changed over the Great Darkness.
>Well, Snodal seems to have believed that he, or at least his
>machinations, still were around in 1499.
And likewise Xeotam of Jonston Compendium fame. But I did say those reports were unconfirmed.
End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #152
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