>>> Do you note how the Closing, like everything else, entered Glorantha from >>> the edges of the world? That was another piece of inspiration for this >>> write-up.
>> I note that it took effect only in the realm of the Living. The
>> Sendereven were unaffected by the Closing since the waters they sailed
>> were. Given your revelation about the Seventh Food, I suppose it only
>> worked there.
> Yeah, that was probably the intent -- divide the Seventh Food Place into > two parts, wet and dry.
That, or isolate the dry places from one another?
>>>> I wonder whether the Closing (and the Dragonkill) featured in prophecies >>>> of the Red Goddess...
>>> More likely, the Opening.
>> I meant prophecies about the coming of the Red Goddess.
> I know, that's what I meant too -- prophecies of the coming of the > Goddess would break the curses that divided the world. Only she will be > able to unite all peoples, despite the barriers and beliefs that separate > them. Etc.
No, more a Nostradamus-like approach of the Goddess: "Not until all seas are impassable, not before the dragons fly to eat shall she reascend."
>> I notice a disturbingly real world tendency to participate in big events
>> and then blame the other participants for the outcome in this write-up.
>> It makes Terthinus a veritable Nazi...
> Heil Terthinus!
Exactly. His "Mein Kampf" is what we're discussing right now, correct?
>>>> Will the solution be a river invading the Crater through Glamour (while >>>> the dragons tear Rufelza's body apart)?
>>> Not sure. More likely, one of Argrath's Seven Dragons is probably a water >>> being, especially given all the Blue Dragons the sea gods have had. (You >>> don't even want to know who Seolinthur became yesterday when Greg and I >>> were talking. Really, you don't.) Let me pull my copy.
>> Oh, come on. Seolinthur can't be that bad. Worst I can imagine right now
>> is some incarnation of the Blue Moon instead of a mere associate (like
>> Lorian). River dragons get boring after the first few examples (Oslir,
>> Aroka).
> No, he is assuming a much more important role in the cosmology and > genealogies than previously imagined.
We knew he had to be very big to be a lieutenant of Genert - Yamsur and Storm Bull (as Genert's Umath more important than Orlanth) aren't lightweights, either.
>>> I note in the Annotated Argrath's Saga that Argrath summons six dragons, >>> but all seven of them appear. The Blue Dragon could be the seventh, the >>> center, acting in a secret manner.
>> I agree that the seventh dragon is the center, acting in a secret
>> manner, but I deny the identity of the Blue Dragon in either Oslir or
>> Aroka shape in this event. See below.
> Of course, it wouldn't be obvious to _humans_. :)
This sounds like an "autonomous truth", then, much like Scientology.
>>> Note that the rise of Oslir "against" >>> Argrath is of course a misunderstanding on the part of the Orlanthi, who >>> think she was attacking Orlanth. What she was trying to do was bring back >>> the Blue Dragon to fill the empty spaces and destroy the Red Moon. But >>> Argrath captured her in a magic bag. This is the source of the secret >>> Seventh Dragon in the utuma ritual. >>> Now, Argrath claims that the Seventh Dragon was his own Inner Dragon, but >>> that just means that the sea gods were able to work through him without>>> his knowing it -- Aroka at last overcame Orlanth by becoming part of >>> Orlanth, after all.
>>> Now, can you deny that I can come up with a half-decent rationalization >>> of almost anything? :)
>> Yes. First of all, dragons are decidedly non-elemental, because they are
>> non-materialist. Sea or Earth, either are at best temporal
>> manifestations of their ancestors' dreams. (At least this goes for
>> dragons which the dragons themselves recognise as such - with Aroka, I
>> tend to have doubts. The Sea Dragons of the Waertagi are non-draconic as
>> far as draconic is defined by either Kralori or Theyalans, witness
>> Harmast's difficulties with them, too.)
> But the Blue Dragon is so specifically a water being,
Aroka is NOT a water being, but the being who had taken Water away from the world, swallowing it. Same for Vadrus' Enkoshons. Aroka is as much a water being for containing water as is Orlanth Cloudherd.
> and yet still a > dragon -- Nestentos of the Deeps is another guise of Burburstus, the Dark > Dragon.
Burburstus evidently is a darkness being, then, much like Nentestos would have to be...
> Lorion is not just the Celestial River, but also the Celestial > Dragon, which lies inside the river. These are undeniable.
Nope. Lorion and Draco Stellaris are two different, separate constellations. Lorion is the Serpent, not the Dragon whose eye courses with Orlanth's Ring.
Serpent and Dragon may be similar, but not identical.
>> Of course where six were questing mightily, the seventh had to come.
>> Compare the assembly of the full six of Lightbringers producing the
>> seventh, or otherwise the great ancestral dragon dissembling into the
>> six ancestral dragons. I even dare say the seventh dragon came from
>> within the moon.
>> Now look at the parallel to the six sides of Bab...
>> Or look at it as the emergence of the Nathic dragon.
> As I said above, whatever you humans want to believe is fine with us > Merhendssh. :)
No. Because Sedenya had taken up parts of Bab to clothe her emptiness, her abode has to broken up like Bab. Six sides, and a seventh.
>>> The above is Terthinus' views -- Dormal should not have been allowed >>> to do this. And, probably, it was Terthinus who should have prevented >>> it.
Terthinus as primary guardian of the Closing? So while he was idling along as leader of the Malasp this secret escaped?
>>> However, Estingitorix is even worse -- he wants to flood all of the >>> world, forever, so that there is only water again. He figures the mermen >>> can live without Dry Food, or with Dry Food converted into wet food. >>> Though Greg and I disagree on this somewhat.
>> Who of you has which position?
> On whether the flood will last forever or not -- I think it will, he > wants to concentrate on the One Theist World thing.
I think it cannot last forever. There are too many other things going on.
>>> Both of them also have beliefs about the Three Worlds, and what to do >>> about them. Terthinus wants to reintegrate them as Magasta did, so that >>> they can exist in harmony again, thus preventing future disaster. Things >>> were fine, but the Dry Gods screwed the worlds up in the First, Second, >>> and now Third Ages.
>> The screw-up for the First Age still is missing.
> Yes, you already mentioned that. Several times. :)
And you still have given no hint of an idea.
>>> Especially Second Age, of course. Estingitorix wants >>> to eliminate the Sorcerous and Animist World, so that Glorantha can be >>> returned to its "original" state as a purely Theist world. Thus, he >>> prohibits any of his mermen from using shamanism
>> Is he aware that by eliminating the Dry Gods he eliminates much of the
>> theist world?
> No -- he plans to incorporate them into the Wet World, the good parts > anyways. The Orlanth Storm will simply become part of the Whirlpool, for > example. Yelm will provide light, as before, but not as this big burning > ball of flame. Ooma will still be there with her children, they will all > simply breathe water. > (Hmm, this implies he is trying to make it so all the mermen can breathe> water. I'll have to discuss this with Greg. Wanna meet a water-breathing > ludoch demi-god, anyone?)
I thought the water-breathing Waertagi - born from unions with Ludoch - were the envy of all mermen, possibly excepting the Gnydron. Ok, they lacked the tails, but otherwise, they were superior to merfolk.
>>> (no mermen use sorcery, despite what Gloranthan Bestiary says).
>> Zabdamar use an eastern system, likely based on mysticism, whose results
>> bear great similarity. Probably akin to the not-quite-Zzabur sorcery
>> practiced in the EWF or by the denizens of Orathorn.
> Greg's pov exactly -- the zabdamar are mystics and theists, not > sorcerers.
I tend to think of this magic as "manifesting dreams", lesser versions of dream dragons or the Dragon's Eye city. (RQ Land of Ninja had very nice dream ghosts which worked on a similar line, too good for coincidence.)
>> Waertagi, on the other hand, do use Zzabur's sorcery to some extent.
> Ah, yes, Waertag -- one of the Three Unfortunate Beings.
Expound, please.
> Well, Terthinus won't be _too_ upset if the humans are not all > exterminated, as long as he can wash over the world.
Most of it, provided he survives long enough, and then makes haste.
> Of course, maybe > neither Terthinus nor Estingitorix wants a permanent flood -- that is the > goal of the third conspirator. Estingitorix might just want to bring a > really big meal for some purpose, in which case he does succeed. I'll > think about it further.
What's the relation between Estingitorix and the Errinoru Embyli? (Pesky plants sailing his seas...) His flooding plans might be directed at them, as well.
>>> Regardless, it is probably certain that the deity who caused the black >>> net to appear in the sky was Magasta, wielding Wachaza (or Sapana? Or >>> even Edzaroun) as a net to pull the Sun back on its course.
>> If the draining of the world continued but the feeding on the outside
>> was suspended (I'm not sure that was the case, but let's assume this for
>> a while), then the continuing function of Magasta's Pool was a
>> resurgence of Dez, feeding on the very substance of the world. In that
>> sense, I'm certain that the deity responsible for the black net was Dez,
>> and/or whatever deity/entity from sea myth Dez was turned into (in
>> Orlanthi terms: Time).
> No, the Net was _returning_ the world to its proper form. It may have > been Dez who caused the world to stop, but it was Magasta who fixed it.
No. Time - the child of the Devil - set the world right again, possibly wielded by Magasta. The blackening part of it was Dez feeding on the substance of the world while Time was set aside.
>>> But, the Sun stopping like this was a minor event compared to the Gods >>> War and the Ashening.
>> The Ashening (glad you like the term) is comparable to the Sun Stop as a
>> preparatory event for the thing which came from it - for the Ashening
>> the answer was the Closing. For the Sun Stop, something weird happened
>> to that Doraddi fleet which was released by Tanian's Victory and landed
>> at Pithdaros eager to fight Gbaji. Almost "not quite a Closing"... It is
>> possible that the real effect of this reaction was directed somewhere
>> else than western and central Genertela. Maybe Slon?
> Unless Terthinus dove in 375 or so, and only returned with the Closing in > 929?
No, you had him disappear during Tanian's Victory. I mean to have an earlier change in the seas, during the Gbaji Wars, which nobody in Genertela had time to notice. Arkat's cursing of Dorastor would have to be the parallel dry event.
>>> I think he does other >>> things, and has special magics that make dry things into aquatic beings, >>> so that they can continue to provide food to the waters after the oceans >>> flood the surface forever.
>> Interesting in light of Thinobutu, under the Marthino Sea. His testing area?
> Ooh, I shall have to mention this to Martin Hawley, who is working on > Thinobutu even as we speak.
Another connection found.
>>> Theoretically, these magics would work on >>> humans as well, but he doesn't bother, as he sees them as vermin that >>> need to be drowned. It is apple trees, cattle, and things like that that >>> he wants to keep.
>> What if a human hero steals this magic? I sense a new thread in the
>> development of the Hero Wars...
> Could be, very well could be.
> You know that Greg said Monday that looking at all the stuff he and I > have developed recently, what we have is the Hero Wars mermen books, and > why not simply do them instead?
Why not indeed. Of course the material still lacks the campaign book and the cultural descriptions. The Marthino Sea sounds like the most interesting area.
>> Apart from this, he will also have to deal with the obscure human
>> solutions found earlier, like the underwater denizens of Oronin or the
>> bubble-enclosed city of Erenplose in the Mournsea.
> Minor points, easily taken care of when the mermen have the upper hand > again.
I suppose quite a lot of this will happen when the floods come. Perhaps enough to save about 2-5% of the humans threatened by the floods. Makes for interesting follow-up campaigns, really weird settings. (As far as I know, there is no Atlantis roleplaying game for classic age humans trapped beneath the waves, or is there one? Earthdawn came close, but conquered the air rather than the submerged realms.)
The Third Player:
>> If you start mentioning/using one of the Ten
>> Tritons, though, you open a whole bag of unwritten myths about them...
>> So far they are little more than a layer in a genealogic scheme.
> Yes, well, they will at least be _named_ layers, soon.
Names without stories are hard to internalize. Even the Celestial Court deities had an interesting anecdote each, at least. (Except the Dara Happan ones...)
>>> As I said above, this third guy is manipulating both Terthinus and >>> Estingitorix. Of course, each of them would simply say that they are >>> manipulating _him_, and that only because of them can he do what he has >>> done. But Greg was certain that neither Estingitorix nor Terthinus was >>> involved in aiding the trolls with the Glacier cutting, so in that much >>> you are absolutely right.
>> He hinted at this at Tentacles, too, when he revealed the struggle
>> between Terthinus and the Slon Mostali. I wonder what Isidilian's
>> reflections on the Schedule make of the premature move of the Slon
>> Decamony.
> Not sure, perhaps they are reacting to the mermen threats -- it is no > good if Slon gets drowned before the Plan comes to fruition.
Most of it lies way below the sea surface anyway. A flood would do little more than slow the Mostali a little, it won't affect them much.
>>>> Given that Terthinus is about to lose to the dwarf project I wonder >>>> whether Estingitorix will be absorbed by the Hunt for the Mother of >>>> Monsters.
>>> While _Terthinus_ might lose to the dwarf project, the mermen in general >>> do not.
>> Good thing, too, or Estingitorix would win. If anyone could plug
>> Magasta's pool for good, it's the Mostali...
> Yeah, but they would at least be conscientious enough to drain out all > the water first -- the Machine is no good to them if it is underwater, > think of the increased wear and tear on components!
Oh, come on, install a few seals on your exits, and flush away those growing elves before recycling the dammed-up stew into beta green.
>>> And, as I recall, the mermen are instrumental in stopping the >>> dwarfs from completing their project.
>> Yes, at Magasta's Pool, after initial dwarf success for Jrustela.
>> In fact, this development might even lead to a re-evaluation of the
>> Dormal cult for Terthinus...
> :)
> Good point, though -- what happens to Jrustela after the dwarfs are > defeated?
By the time the dwarfs are defeated in the center of the world, the southwestern quarter of the world has become a pyramid, its surface a landscape of regular shapes where nilmergs and larger creations scramble about, trying to keep out the human, elf and troll refugees from the surrounding lands while the waters keep rising.
The Malasp will have lost their egg-laying banks near Grigdom, and will have some hard time finding a suitable replacement where they can deposit their myriads of younglings.
>>> Now that I know about the dwarf project, I know how he gets to >>> the Iron City from Jrustela -- magic dwarf tunnels.
>> I wonder how much Harrek and Argrath upset the schedule. Possibly enough
>> for the Slon Decamony to panic and act prematurely?
> Hey, good idea -- we'll have to mention this to Greg!
I trust you will do so. I'll contact Erik Sieurin, aka Mr. Mostali.
> Harrek does stay > longer than Argrath, and undoubtedly causes a lot of destruction. And the > fact that humans got to the Second-Time Tunnel, figured out how to use > it, and made it all the way to Jrustela must have scared the bejeesus out > of them!
And Isidilian will get a fit when he learns that their actions have upset the schedule. "This is even worse than the Iron Crucible!"
Rune Font
> Greg has a new one, that will probably be available soon. Of course, it > apparently makes even less sense than this.
Few symbol fonts do make sense, IMO.
>>> Is that more clear? I really didn't think it was unclear in the write-up. >>> Of course, a "genealogical" chart (more of a taxonomic chart, really) >>> will accompany the article, hopefully that will make it more clear.
>> A sidebox to that chart stating the paragraphs above will help a lot.
> OK, will do. The book, even after the split, is already in the 140 page > range, what's one more section?
This is little more than the legend to the chart.
>> Much of the difficulty is of course caused by the bewildering assault of
>> new names without myths or stories attached (yet). This goes for recent
>> Greg material as well.
> Yes, that will be helped in this book -- 5-6 pages of "Who's Who Among > the Sea Gods," with a lot of material to put beings into context. The new > Spirits of the Sea article will also help with this, as will several > other ones (including this one, it is true).
This will present the information, but not necessarily make it familiar. That's the difference between the gods presented in Cults of Prax - with lots of myths and anecdotes - and those in Gods of Glorantha, which has mainly dry facts, even in Prosopaedia.
You may call me a RQ2-grognard, but I do think that Glorantha was presented a lot more alive in RQ2 (supplements, mostly) than it ever was in RQ3, excepting Sun County (only, neither Dorastor nor River of Cradles were as alive). If I knew how to include fiction into the upcoming regional books, I'd hound Greg about it.
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #193
Powered by hypermail