Joerg Baumgartner
>I wanted to point out that the natives of Maniria turned to Lifebringer
>ways at the same time, and that the western Manirians including the Mraloti
>were subject to the Lifebringer (i.e. theist) methods during the Dawn Age.
>The Ramali are mentioned as one of the Entruli tribes.
The Mraloti of Ramalia are children of Mralot, and -are/were- Hsunchen. The Entruli are children of Kethaa and Entru, and stated to be Hsunchen too, but in case this is true, they don't have the same beast ancestor. How the Mraloti may have interacted with the Ramali who gave their name to the country is mysterious for me.
>Somehow I am astonished that the idea of a similarity between Orlanth the
>Boar and Mralot due to the conversion efforts of the Lifebringer
>missionaries should cause so much headache.
How do the Hsunchen react to other beast-worshippers? I can't think of any RW similar cultural clash.
>I don't postulate any extant theist Mraloti. I do postulate that whatever
>theist Mraloti there were now are called Wenelians, and were known as those
>Entruli the Lifebringers of the early second century contacted.
The Entruli were probably theist boar-worshippers but different from the Mraloti who IMO were native Ramalians. The connection is probably due to the abundance of pigs in Slontos, but in the west it's a pig-spirit whereas in the east it's a pig-god.
Basmoli origin
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>Peter:
>>>>The [Basmoli] came from Pamaltela, not Seshnela.
It makes me wonder: Are the Basmoli Agimori-type? I can't picture the Pamaltelan lion-hsunchen as Wererans...
No problem with the Basmoli of Prax being black, though i fancy there are several different complexions like in the RW, and Basmoli are certainly not the same as Doraddi. However, most Pendali AFAIK were assimilated by the Seshnegi, who seem to be typical Wererans nowadays and show no evidence of Agimori blood.
>It seems like we might be able to agree on an immigration from the south
>for Prax (much like the Beast Riders are attributed to).
>
>Hrestol did not kill Basmol, but Ifftala, mother of Pendal (by Basmol) and
>daughter of Seshna Likita.
Ok, maybe Ifftala's children were Wererans then. After all Basmol is just a lion and probably doesn't care much about his children's skin complexions.
>Unless Greg has revised this, at least the Pendali and the Enerali are the
>human children of a beast god by a different mother than the
>beast children in his early western writings. Both Enerali and Pendali
>claimed ancestry of the land (goddess? spirit?). IMO several other
>"Hsunchen" peoples of Ralios were similar in this regard.
Kethaa is the Entruli's mother too.
>The best test for the various lion hypotheses will be an examination of the
>lions (extant or historical) found in Maniria. A separate race will point
>to Julian's thesis, otherwise we will get Basmoli or Durbaddath lions
>(possibly somewhat changed).
I like the cannibal Blue Lion idea, it's quite fun. OTOH i think Basmol traveled throughout southern Genertela and bred with a few different entities. I godlearnerishly think he originally came from Prax and the Praxian Basmoli are descendants of the black immigrants. Then he traveled through northern Slontos and begat one or several clans of Basmoli, before heading for Seshnela. After this he wandered throughout his new territory, but it was really vast even for the Big Lion and other people came to drive him off and do unpleasant things to his skin and children.
Another possibly which doesn't exclude the first is that a few clans of Pendali refugees from Basim crossed the Mislari Mountains through the legendary Pass.
The nature of the entities whom the Lion god bred with influenced the nature of his descendants, so the Pendali were Wereran and possibly socially advanced, building cities even though they let their subjects toil the earth.
>>But Greymane's people are not "right next" to Basim as has been
>>pointed out before.
>
>Close enough, especially since the original refuge of the Basmoli was out
>of the plains and high in the mountains (the Enerali didn't
>love them any more than the Seshnegi), their hunting grounds will have been
>on both sides of the Mislari mountains. Hence my opinion that Bastis had to
>do with lions and Basmol, hence my (unchanged) opinion that Basmoli lions
>are far closer than Peter will put them.
IMG Bastis is the name of the local Trader Prince family and i've just had that silly idea that they may be a successful Drom family with ancestors from Basim, and weird lion worshippers :)
Survival
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>IMO several Dureving peoples survived by using Hsunchen methods, retaining
>only a shred of their Orlanthi ways. Their Hsunchen magic may have been
>more difficult but one does what one must to survive. The Fronelan Orlanthi
>turning into beasts to avoid the Logician invasion must have appeared as
>Hsunchen to the invaders.
Yea! assuming the ways of animals may be an excellent way to survive. Indeed some forlorn people may have turned back to the animal folk for help, or the animals volunteered to help them. Maybe the Mraloti helped the Harandings and tried to show them how to be proper pigs. Then at the Dawn or during the Silver Age, Orlanth came back from the LBQ, and now he was a pig. (Well, from their POV and with twisted Godtime rationale, he had always been.) After that 'betrayal' the Mraloti turned their back on them.
>As a final statement: I don't think that the Lifebringer conversions would
>work in 17th century Glorantha. They worked in a period of unstability
>after the cataclysms of the Greater Darkness. Something similar might work
>after the Hero Wars, when the Otherworld is re-ordered again, but for the
>time
>being the Otherworld is yet too set in its ways.
With the clear separation between gods and spirits that didn't really exist ruleswise in RQ (ie all of Glorantha's history so far), this is important that such flexibility be possible IMO.
Jerome
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