> --- Michael Hitchens <michaelh_at_yByqA5CO42-1W2xgE_wHtWlf3dOOXcPtTTVQsQrrX3C8VAD01inxgO43oYvgHHG8zUa408RNXGjkkLYzkrDm.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
>> I'd *guess* that Maniski and Yanioth are his blood
>> parents, as he needs a
>> blood claim to the throne, but it's just my opinion.
>
> That would be my guess. To affect the Flame, whenever
> and however he did, he needs the Sartar blood, and in
> the genetic rather than legal sense. You can possibly
> get him that blood by another route, if you have
> Venharl in Pavis (where we know he has a son!) and his
> "wife" being Brenna, but dates start to get very
> messy. And that equates Argrath of Pavis with the
> other two as well, bringing in a whole new raft of
> problems.
Yes, there's that whole bit in Argrath of Pavis about the Argrath outside the wall - unless Brennason is somehow slipping in and out of the city under siege you have to have at least two Argraths. Which isn't that hard - Argrath meaning liberator, Argrath of Pavis means "Liberator of Pavis" as opposed to other Argraths who liberated other places.
If you try to fit the five males from the list in OiD together the first to squeeze out thru the cracks is Brennasson. Apart from them both being in Pavis around the same time I can't make my head fit what we know of Garrath and what we know of Brennasson into the one person. He doesn't really fit with Argrath White Bull either (who I find the next hardest to fit into the composite).
>>> If you want them to be separate individuals,
>> you're
>>> going to have to sort out what was going on in
>> 1632,
>>> and who it was who got accepted by Leika. Not
>>> impossible, of course, but you'll end up
>> contradicting something, somewhere.
>>
>> I'm not sure you can avoid contradicting anything,
>> whatever you do
>
> It gets hard at times, yes.
Yes, at the very least one of the saga and Argrath and the Colymar has to be taken as having some errors, as you note.
>> - the
>> saga says Maniski was of the Karandoli clan, so why
>> the need to be
>> Venharlsson to claim clan membership?
>
> Ah, the Saga. Written by mixing various other sources,
> long after the event. No, that looks to me like the
> Saga author confusing his two lots of parentage. I
> suppose it's entirely possible that Maniski was
> Karandoli *too* (is a clan given for him elsewhere?),
> and that would help explain the choice of
> foster-parents, but the story given to Leika is so
> detailed it looks like it was documented by an
> eye-witness.
I don't remember any clan being given for Maniski, but I actually find it
hard to believe he's Karandoli for two reasons:
1. Why claim would Argrath Colymar membership thru his adopted father when
his blood father was also a member?
2. If the Karandoli live "on the other side" where was he living when he
killed the lunar tax collectors at age 14?
> Incidentally, did you notice the link to Arnbord
> Venharlson, of the Karandoli clan in Pavis?
Yes, makes me wonder where exactly the Karandoli are.
>> But Garrath "Sharpsword" Maniskison, descended by
>> blood on his mother's
>> side from King Sartar, adopted son of Venharl of the
>> Karandoli, makes a lot work.
>
> It does. There's nothing forcing him to also be
> Garrath Sharpsword as far as I know, other than
> tradition that Garrath = "the Argrath", but I'd always
> made that assumption. If we "need"
> Maniskisson/Venharlsson to have been around while
> Garrath was on the high seas, that's not so hard to
> split.
I agree, but Garrath has the right feel to him if you want a charasmatic
leader. Also he has a relationhip with Gonn Orta via helping the cradle.
While you can easily make Argrath someone other the Garrath, remember we
don't actually know an awful lot about him - not his father, not his clan,
etc. You can paint a lot into the gaps to make him suit the needs of
your Glorantha. So why invent another person when Garrath will do? I can
actually think of two reasons, there are probably others:
1. You need Argrath to be somewhere else for the period ~1620-1625 where
we know Garrath's movements
2. You want an Argrath whose personality does't match what we know about
Garrath's.
But if those don't apply I can't see why not to go with Garrath. Making up another character who is a charasmatic leader who wasn't in Sartar 1620-1625 seems a little pointless.
>> Not everything though. Where'd he get his ability
>> to copy the lunar magical regiments?
>
> Natural genius? Saw it, worked out how to copy it?
As someone else suggested, started to learn from the Cradle experience.
>> And what clann/tribe was his father.
>> Probably not the Karandoli, as noted above.
>
> The only other reference I've found so far is in the
> Kings List, written long after Argrath's death, and
> nearly as reliable as the Saga :( That has him in the
> Karandoli.
See above
> The business with Leika is an attempt to bring his own
> Karandoli clan back to Sartar, and to get them back as
> a member of a powerful tribe. Simply saying that they
> still existed *might* have achieved that, proving his
> own descent from a King of the Colymar made the whole
> thing stronger. It all looks like "if you want me, you
> have to take my clan as well."
Yes, which also makes him look like a good Orlanthi - looking after his clan
>> Questions, questions. I actually dread the day we
>> answer them all with finality :-)
>
> I doubt if we ever will. We've more or less figured
> out how much freedom we have left after going through
> KoS, and it's just about enough for players to have
> room to move. Tie it any more tightly than this, we'd
> be more of less forced to break things to give the
> players somewhere to fit. Forcing Sky and Earth apart
> to make your own realm is a Good Thing, of course, but
> it can be overdone :)
Violence is always an option :-)
Michael
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