Re: Good Tricksters, Hare?

From: Greg Stafford <Greg_at_srS7UCIHUr3JxTwu1bcQpNljXguuMUKemp5IYosOcODCV8xIxSavNQ1uIlxayLqNFpzR9de>
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:57:10 -0800

YGWV Dan Guillou wrote:
> >Are you taking my answer *literally*, that these are* precise
> >quantifications* for ALL Tricksters in Glorantha? The rest of your
> >question certainly seems to indicate this.
> Yeah, I did think it kinda looked that way. And I was shocked. Nice to
> see that you were shocked in turn that anyone would take you literally.

My naivety is renewed daily.
NEVER take mythology literally, and do not take my words for absolute Truth.
I know what I know, which is a lot about mythology, and assume over and over that people will remember that mythology is not ever stable and fixed into hard numbers.
> me:
> >> Real World comparison: Loki, to Coyote, to Hermes.
> Greg:
> >I would be extremely curious to know what you calculate those
> >three individuals' percentages of evil, meaningless, stupid and
> >good things to be.
> Haha. Let see...
> Hermes.

See, he's a god who is far removed from the cosmic. I'd disagree with your analysis of Hermes' growth/character, btw, but this isn't the place for it.
But you will often see him called a trickster figure in writing about myth.
> Coyote. Closest to your 25/25/25/25 pattern. Not surprisingly, if you
> based the gloranthan tricksters on the north american ones?
No, but on primitive ones in general, and some experience with the archetype.

> I'm not
> expert on native american myth, so a neil gaiman quote comes to mind:
> "...but you think about it: who's going to worship Coyote? He made love
> to Porcupine Woman and got his dick shot through with more needles than
> a pincushion. He'd argue with rocks and the rocks would win."
That's the guy.
> (Out of
> American Gods, a good read, by the way.)

Hated it. Until I visualized it as a comic, and it was tolerable.
> Loki. Pretty much 100 % bad things.

I disagree hat he's 100% bad. If he kills Tjjazzi for us and rescues Freya, that isn't bad.
Nonetheless, to illustrate what I mean about the masks: Hermes and Loki are that same essential raw power of disordering the social conventions, but contained in a package appropriate to the culture. But not Trickster.
> >> I would also have guessed that pelorian tricksters, generally,
> >>would be more rotten, as a consequence of the solar guys' anal
> >>retentive obsession with order, no?
> >There are wide ranges of acceptability. As Trotsky said, to the uptight
> >DHs everything that is not "good" for their upper class standards is
> >bad. But if Carrot Man put a whoopee cushion on the Emperor's throne
> one
> >time, do you think that the Lodrilites (90% of the population) would
> >consider it to be bad? Yet the upper class would likely consider it
> >evil, a capital offense, and chop Mr. Carrot up. (again).
> Ha ha. Yes, a lot depends on where you are when you hear a story.
> Someone mentioned Bugs Bunny earlier in the thread. We all love to
> watch him, but take a minute to think about what would happen if you
> actually ran into him on, while on a heroquest. Personally, I can't
> think of a scarier, tougher, and more
> no-matter-what-you-do-you're-gonna-end-up-toast trickster.

Never trust a trickster.

At which point I will categorically remind everyone that I have never claimed to be a Trickster, and have never been so stupid, intoxicated, intimidated or inflamed enough to have done so.

    Greg Stafford
    President, Issaries. Inc.

Love without reserve, 
Enjoy without restraint, 
Live without dead time.



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