Re: Good Tricksters, Hare?

From: Greg Stafford <Greg_at_srS7UCIHUr3JxTwu1bcQpNljXguuMUKemp5IYosOcODCV8xIxSavNQ1uIlxayLqNFpzR9de>
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:57:10 -0800

YGWV Dan Guillou wrote:
> >Are you taking my answer *literally*, that these are* precise
> >quantifications* for ALL Tricksters in Glorantha? The rest of your
> >question certainly seems to indicate this.
>
> Yeah, I did think it kinda looked that way. And I was shocked. Nice to
> see that you were shocked in turn that anyone would take you literally.
>

My naivety is renewed daily.
NEVER take mythology literally, and do not take my words for absolute Truth.
I know what I know, which is a lot about mythology, and assume over and over that people will remember that mythology is not ever stable and fixed into hard numbers.
> me:
> >> Real World comparison: Loki, to Coyote, to Hermes.
> Greg:
> >I would be extremely curious to know what you calculate those
> >three individuals' percentages of evil, meaningless, stupid and
> >good things to be.
>
> Haha. Let see...
> Hermes.

See, he's a god who is far removed from the cosmic. I'd disagree with your analysis of Hermes' growth/character, btw, but this isn't the place for it.
But you will often see him called a trickster figure in writing about myth.
> Coyote. Closest to your 25/25/25/25 pattern. Not surprisingly, if you
> based the gloranthan tricksters on the north american ones?
No, but on primitive ones in general, and some experience with the archetype.

> I'm not
> expert on native american myth, so a neil gaiman quote comes to mind:
> "...but you think about it: who's going to worship Coyote? He made love
> to Porcupine Woman and got his dick shot through with more needles than
> a pincushion. He'd argue with rocks and the rocks would win."
That's the guy.
> (Out of
> American Gods, a good read, by the way.)
>

Hated it. Until I visualized it as a comic, and it was tolerable.
> Loki. Pretty much 100 % bad things.

I disagree hat he's 100% bad. If he kills Tjjazzi for us and rescues Freya, that isn't bad.
Nonetheless, to illustrate what I mean about the masks: Hermes and Loki are that same essential raw power of disordering the social conventions, but contained in a package appropriate to the culture. But not Trickster.
> >> I would also have guessed that pelorian tricksters, generally,
> >>would be more rotten, as a consequence of the solar guys' anal
> >>retentive obsession with order, no?
>
> >There are wide ranges of acceptability. As Trotsky said, to the uptight
> >DHs everything that is not "good" for their upper class standards is
> >bad. But if Carrot Man put a whoopee cushion on the Emperor's throne
> one
> >time, do you think that the Lodrilites (90% of the population) would
> >consider it to be bad? Yet the upper class would likely consider it
> >evil, a capital offense, and chop Mr. Carrot up. (again).
>
> Ha ha. Yes, a lot depends on where you are when you hear a story.
> Someone mentioned Bugs Bunny earlier in the thread. We all love to
> watch him, but take a minute to think about what would happen if you
> actually ran into him on, while on a heroquest. Personally, I can't
> think of a scarier, tougher, and more
> no-matter-what-you-do-you're-gonna-end-up-toast trickster.
>

Never trust a trickster.

At which point I will categorically remind everyone that I have never claimed to be a Trickster, and have never been so stupid, intoxicated, intimidated or inflamed enough to have done so.

-- 
    Greg Stafford
    President, Issaries. Inc.

Love without reserve, 
Enjoy without restraint, 
Live without dead time.