Re: Why is Kargzant a Spirit?

From: Richard Hayes <richard_hayes29_at_Y5lCR2JSySRVQTvPSGJ_F9S26NLpazJwZXrvhrJnwVz5fZdgXyamlYP7V05M>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 17:39:08 +0000 (GMT)


Interesting.
 
I like the explanation in relation to Kargzant. But how does the same logic apply to Urox/the Storm Bull?  
Is there a 'god' Urox and a 'great spirit' Storm Bull, which are distinct and located in different realms, each of which reflect something fundamental about a particular kind of harsh wind/storm?  
Are both Urox and Storm Bull believed to be related to Orlanth? (I remember it being said once before in this group that Eiritha is known, and acknowledged as related to Ernalda, but not worshipped in Sartar). If this is correct, doesn't this make it more likely that Urox and the Storm Bull are the same?  
If both are related to Orlanth, doesn't this reinforce the suggestion that Urox and Storm Bull are the same entity reached by different routes?  
Alternatively are the God World and the Spirit World not wholly separate-- that if one were to draw the material world and the other worlds, it would look more like a Venn diagram rather than clean strata separating each of the other worlds? Is there a grey area where  the two overlap, and where entities that seem to have a foot in both camps (like Urox/Storm Bull) reside?  
Following on from the idea about the separateness of the other worlds, where do Essence worshippers go for their otherworld heroquests? Do they not do otherworld heroquests, or do they have to go onto alien and potentially hostile territory first?  
FWIW I'm probably more inclined to the Venn diagram theory of the otherworlds (it seems more in keeping with mixed magic and with the decline in the use of the word 'plane' to describe the otherworlds which did strongly sugggest that they were clearly delineated), though I cuold be completely mistaken  
Richard Hayes

From: Todd Gardiner <todd.gardiner_at_bHoY3_LgANB6r66wrDUTSccAlq00CZRkxe-_UHWjsmmMH1Hvtg4M5VUZ7kP6CuNUxpBnpRBUIKmsBMmElP8tQVDJ.yahoo.invalid> Subject: Re: Why is Kargzant a Spirit?
To: WorldofGlorantha_at_yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 January, 2010, 17:14

The major forces of the middle world, such as the Sun, existing as "overlapping" entities in the otherworlds. There is an essential version of the sun, a divine version of the sun and a spiritual version of the sun.
>From the Godlearner perspective, this are separate and distinct entities,
which each represent the fullness of the observable phenomenon of the sun.

While the essence nature of things is not generally "worshiped" (although there is always misapplied worship)  the other two are. The Horse peoples chose the Spirit Sun (or perhaps it chose them) and the Dara Happens descend from the sky world of the divine Otherworld.

Another example, Ernalda is the major god of the earth for Genertela, but Genert was the major spirit. Tragically, he died in the age of Darkness and now the spirit-tied lands of eastern Genertela suffer.

--Todd

On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Stephen Tempest <e-g_at_Qm87IZNs7gnviu4Uekdgi0lEcNvlXYoP8NzT48fvj14_JdLfe-hejLhLqxl-bUjginijIk2fnlD-yNUxj_TB6nEd1w.yahoo.invalid>wrote:

>
>
> "Nicholas P" <nick.the.nevermet_at_MKgdILnpcMs_GMw4nTDKn29wwsL_uz5_t57sAx3uaXzb8nXvvUA3AYFopaKQOPoGh679eYxjK-2WdCns5vdvTvAzzQ.yahoo.invalid <nick.the.nevermet%40gmail.com>>
> writes:
>
> >Are there any myths from Dara Happa & Pent (including the Grazers & the
> Char-Un) that account for why Kargzant is a spirit while Yelm & Co. are
> gods? I could also probably ask the same question about SurEnslib of the
> Darjiin. I also realize that Pentans and the Dara Happans likely have
> different understandings of this.
>
> Personally, I've always thought that the 'Jenarong Rites' introduced
> by the Kargzanti nomads were misapplied worship of Yelm (or Antirius)
> by animists. This still gave the Hirenmador dynasty enough power of an
> unusual sort to achieve hegemony over the other horse nomads... but
> once the Dara Happans got their act together and rediscovered the
> proper theist Yelmic rites, they were able to rebel successfully.
>
> But I don't know whether that impression fits Glorantha as currently
> depicted. :-)
>
> Stephen
>
> 
>

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