Greg said:
>> No, this isn't another case of me ENTIRELY
>changing my mind >> with new data.
>> I think that the material world is quite
>countable, an that >> the sorcerers are quite good at it.
>> Nonetheless, the mythic world(s) can not be so
>treated.
>> NOW, I DO believe that many/most sorcerers DO
>apply their >> wonderful numbers to the Immaterial World.
>However, that >> doesn't make them right, and it is NOT useful to>them on HQing.
>
Simon:
>I'm with Greg on this one - the old Greg before he
>changed his>mind. This new Greg is in a terrible state of
>Error, which I hope >to correct.
Consider those hopes at least partially fulfilled, Simon.
>Firstly, if the sorcery realm is not measurable and
>countable then
>the Malkioni are not Materialists. What is your
>view on this point?
I am not sure that Materialism ha much to do with the Otherside, except as a projection into it. Which is something. Materialism (in the sense that I have generally used it) assumes that the material world was first and is preeminent in understanding the Ultimate Reality. I wil concede that som eof that reality has permeated at least the "closer" of the Otherside Planes.
>Secondly, I believe it is eminently countable. For
>example we can >count the various Saint's nodes. We can count the >connections >between them and infer meaning from the fact that >some nodes have >more connections than others (Google Page Ranks for >Saint nodes, >anyone?). We can even perform hyper-dimensional >geometrical
>analyses of their relationships.
Yes, of course you can count those. I am not sure you can actually measure them in absolutte terms. You cancount the number of spells that one node grants or one Saint invented, but you can not quite measure which is ore powerful.
>I believe that geometry is vitaly important to much
>magic. >Just ask the Buseri! The regular solids have
>mystical significance
Actually, they have magical significence, not mystical. Their significence exists on the Planes, not the Ultimate Reality.
>and the fact that the Great Pyramid of Raibanth >embodies all sorts >of clever ratios and proportions is absolutely
>related to it's >magical importance. Greg, go sit on one of the >excelent Pyramids >in your viscinity and see for yourself.
This is mildly convincing, though perhaps not in the manner you suggest. The sacred solids have a material reality which is mathimatically expressed, to be sure. And in fact I would agree tht this carries forward into at least the mathmatical part of the magical planes. But they do not denote an ultimate reality. The Buserian observations of importance about these solids ahve to do with the material plane. Agreed, the material plane (even to a non materialisit) is a reflection of the Upper Planes, so there is some commection as proved by that reflection.
>As Trotsky said, mathematics itself is self
>evidently magical >and anyone who says otherwise is in dire need of a >stiff smoke.
Math is a type of magic, and I should not have discounted it so absolutely. On that line, I would imagine tht the astronaut might even discern this and project himself along its abstrct currents into parts of the Otherside.
>Of course not all magic is quantifiable in this
>way, materialist >analysis of this kind would be useless to a mystic.
>Any form of >transcendent magic will not be susceptible to
>logical analysis,
Gotta disagree here. Rationality has absolutely no reign or power after a certain stage of the Otherside. Rationality isnot the supreme of anythig, not even in our own world of here and now on Earth today.
>which is why the Brithini (and perhaps the Rokari >too) have no >truck with Hrestol's Joy of the Heart. Yet >malkionism has a very >different take on transcendence to other Gloranthan >religions.
No, not at all. I disagree on this. I would like to see what you consider to be the difference, perhaps in a new thread.
>I defy anyone to tell me that the magicians of the
>magicians of >the Kingdom of Logic didn't use logical magic.
Of course they did, which was in fact the cause of their failure. Rationality is only one side of a coin and dependance upon it to the cost of other things leads to failure.
Sincerely,
Greg Stafford
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End of Glorantha Digest
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