First, let me make one thing perfectly clear: I do not now, nor have I ever, believed that the Veth Ethdisi were Carmanians. If I somehow left anyone with that impression, then I apologize. It wasn't intentional, I assure you. In fact, I think the idea is preposterous.
That said, I think they shared many common interests with the Carmanians - but that is another subject for debate...
Peter Metcalfe continues:
>>Carmanos, Son of the Lake, came ashore in Brinnus, and during his
>>lifetime liberated the southern Oronin Valley.
>>
>>
>
>Siglat came from Altinela yet in becoming King of Loskalm, he did
>not make the Loskalmi Altinae.
>
Altinela is not in the middle of Loskalm, but regardless, I don't
believe that the Carmanians are Veth Ethdisi. (or vice versa. Just to be
clear.)
>Moonson became Emperor of Dara Happa but in doing so, the Dara
>Happans did not become Lunars.
>
Not everyone in Pelanda became Carmnian either, although the Dara
Happans fared better than the unconverted Pelandans. I am not sure how
this is relevant, though, unless you are equating the Lunars with the
Veth Ethdisi - which I don't think is apt.
>Harrek the Berserk became the Champion of the Yggites but the
>Yggites did not become Rathori.
>
Agreed. I also don't think it is an "apples to apples" comparison with
Carmanos, unless you are maybe suggesting that I think Carmanos was a
Veth Ethdisi and that therefore his converted subjects would be Veth
Ethdisi. Or something. Either way, I have never believed that the Veth
Ethdisi are Carmanian or vice versa. Any implication of such, if it
occurred, was purely accidental.
>Just because Carmanos came from the Lake does not make the Lake
>inhabitants Carmanians.
>
>
I absolutely completely and without reservation heartily agree to this
statement. And always have.
>>According to the maps, Carmaina controlled the entire area around
>>Lake Oronin.
>>
>>
>Except as the RedLine History states:
>
> The inhabitants of this castle were typical of the type, and
> were very close to the inhabitants along the shores of the
> lake. Castle Blue considered those people among their own
> followers, and had always defended them from external
> aggression. Even the Carmanians had respected the holding
> of Castle Blue.
>
>
Which only supports, IMHO, the proposition that the Veth Ethdisi and the
Carmanians were on good terms.
>And the Fortunate Succession:
>
> The Lake was at the edge of Carmanian and Dara Happan lands.
>
>
Here is where I say: "Fortunate Succession is, in this instance, wrong."
Or put more mildly, it isn't particularly correct. At the time of the
Battle of Castle Blue, the growing empire of the Red Goddess had reached
Carmania, and at that time one *might* correctly say that Lake Oronin
was on the edge of Carmanian and Dara Happan lands. This is not
generally true, though, as the rest of Fortunate Succession (maps, etc),
the Entekosiad, and ILH-1 support.
>Even though the Shah of Carmania might have claimed Lake Oronin as
>part of his lands, it seems that the locals respected
>the Castle more and most were not Carmanians.
>
>
I never said the Shah claimed Lake Oronin itself as part of his lands,
although the Shahs definitely did claim the shoreline. The locals were
most definitely Carmnians (minus the serfs and maybe Bisosae special
cases), for all the reasons I have already said. They respected Castle
Blue partly *because* they were Carmanians, and thus hold the place to
be holy.
>>Based on this, and what is said in Fortunate Succession (pg 52) and
>>the Red Line History (Castle Blue) I believe that the relationship
>>between Carmania and Castle Blue was very close.
>>
>>
>Even if they were very close, this does not make the inhabitants of
>Castle Blue Carmanians.
>
>
I agree. The residents of Castle Blue are not Carmanians. You can rest
easy on this one, I assure you.
>>Shardash was the capital of Carmania under the Bull Shahs, but it
>>was not always so. It isn't said anywhere that I know of when the
>>move of the capitol occurred.
>>
>>
>Originally the proto-Carmanians settled in Jhor so I would expect
>their oldest capital to have been Kitor.
>
>
Here again I have to say that the old sources that mention Jhor as the
origional settling place of the Carmanians are wrong, or at best
misleading. Syranthir settled in Worrian (the "Pasture of Syranthir")
after defeating the Spolites at Brinnus. Carmanos liberated the Oronin
Valley up to Balovius. At some point thereafter, he or his son Surandar
took Jhor and then Spol. Kitor doesn't appear on maps until much later -
maybe even the Third Age. I am not saying that it didn't happen. I am
just saying there isn't any evidence of Shahs using Kitor as a capitol.
My choice for early capitols would be Brinnus (at first) and then
Balovius (because of the Law Rock). It is just an educated guess, though.
>>I do feel that the evidence is very strong that the Veth Ethdisi
>>are Carmanian allies, though.
>>
>>
>If so, they would have fought at the Four Arrows of Light.
>
>
Lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack. If they weren't there, though,
it might be because they are confined to Lake Oronin for some reason. I
am not saying that they are definitely confined to the lake, BTW, just
speculating.
>That they didn't, that they initially tolerated Lunars to enter
>their lands and that their original gripe was about the
>death of their kinsmen indicates that the Veth Ethdisi were lukewarm
>allies at best.
>
>
I disagree, but then this is a matter of interpretation and preference
until Issaries gives us more to work with. I think the little that *is*
written (already quoted by you) indicates that the Veth Ethdisi were not
happy about the Lunars living on the shore of their lake. If you don't
agree, then fine - but I am comfortable with my interpretation until
more evidence comes to light.
>
>The Bull Shahs? Their ancestor Purush/Shahtavar was merely
>a son of an Esus priestess (FS p99) in Vanstal (Ent. p91).
>
They eventually married into the legitimate line. Cartavar was the first
Bull Shah to be of the line of the Prophet, I believe. FS says "son of a
Carmanian noblewoman" but I believe there is more elsewhere. I will look
around when I have time.
>Even if he was remotely related to the lineage of Carmanos, the blood
>relationship has been well and truly diluted by the seventeen Shahs
>that ruled since that time.
>
That time span might not seem all that long to the folk of Castle Blue...
>And blood relationship alone is not sufficient grounds for alliance
>as the (RW) Great War shows.
>
>
Oh, I doubt the relationship ends with just Carmanos. I suspect the
Carmanians worked hard to keep the people of Castle Blue happy - if for
religious reasons if nothing else.
>And what did the Veth Ethdisi do when the Bull Shahs took over?
>Nothing as far as can be seen.
>
>
The Bisosae have their own relationship with the people of the lake that
predates the arrival of Carmanos.
>It might be that the Veth Ethdisi were not so much angry about their
>kinsmen being killed but the refusal or inability of the Lunars to
>return the corpse.
>
>
Maybe. Who knows? If you want to play it that way, then fine. I prefer
my interpretation (big surprise!) so I will stick with it.
>>As for the decision... "With their family connections the Sons of
>>Darbeest soon involved all of the magical isle's inhabitants, as
>>well as the remaining humans from the lake's shores." I believe
>>that the Sons of Darbeest were Carmanians, not Veth Ethdisi.
>>
>>
>I don't think that follows. All you have demonstrated is kinship,
>not ethnic identity.
>
>
I don't need to prove ethnic identity for my view to work, IMHO.
>>There may well have been no Shah at the time.
>>
>>
>
>There were several claimants after the Battle of the Four Arrows of
>Light - Carmanian resistance only ceased at the conclusion of the
>Blood Kings War at the start of the Second Wane.
>
>
Yep. I agree. There still might not have been a Shah at the time. In
fact, I think the evidence suggests that they never did succeed in
getting another claimant enthroned.
>
>>While your chronology is correct, I think it gives plenty of time
>>for things to progress as I propose.
>>
>>
>I fail to see how a cult of several hundreds that was stopped by the
>Goddess after the defeat of its founder four years before could have
>become powerful enough in Meglardinth and why the Veth Ethdisi would
>attack the heretics and not the Lunars.
>
>
OK. If you don't like it, then don't use it in your Glorantha. It won't
keep me up at night, I assure you! I like the idea, though, and haven't
heard anything said here that has changed my mind.
So... where does this leave us? Agreeing to disagree I think. On my end, at least.
~Kevin McDonald
Powered by hypermail