Tackling Jeff's analysis:
> A bit from CHDP:
: "In 1619, the Lunar armies marched southward. The first opponent was : the army of Volsaxland, which was driven into the walls of : Whitewall. Jorkandros Blinder of the Untarl family of Yuthuppa, was : given command of the siege. The rest of the army pushed on, : assaulted Smithstone, then marched down river to Karse."
> So to begin with, the Lunar army drove the Volsaxi into Whitewall,
The Volsaxi: who exactly? DP:LoT makes participation of the three other Volsaxar tribes fairly limited. Or possibly all Curtali, Bacofi and Sylangi loyal to Broyan's cause were withdrawn from their lands by Broyan's muster, leaving the Lunar-lovers in power outside of the city?
> detached a besieging force, and then proceeded on the Karse.
Basically the Tarshite goal. The "seaport Corflu" scheme appears to have been carried by Oslir Valley merchants. The Tarshite cartel goes for the better trade routes.
> I find
> it interesting that Dara Happans seem to be the siege-engineers of
> the Lunar military - I don't think that siege warfare is one of the
> strengths of the Tarshites.
It's the mindset. To Heortlings (including Tarshites), every hill is a ziggurat, whereas to Dara Happans any temple must be part of a city. The Heortlings have the Hidden Kings. To the Dara Happans the Manimati exile and dispersal is about the worst thing their empire experienced during the Greater Darkness, with Jenarong a definite turn to the better, a centralized state.
> Fazzur appears to practice a war of
> manoeuver and speed; cities and fortresses are to be blockaded and
> removed from the main action.
Thereby also eliminating troublesome traditionalist officers from the crucial parts of the campaign.
But yes, compare the Storming of Karse with the Heartlander Bat assault on Whitewall. "Dragonewts, hired at inhuman cost" (or was that Boldhome? I seem to recall dragonewts at Karse, too.) and a combined arms maneuver with an assault from the sea (access to which was blocked for the main part of Fazzur's forces, IMO, hence the usage of Corflu). Mobile tactics with a high degree of communication.
Jorkandros appears to have planned to use the Bat as a mega-siege engine. This had worked well at Runegate (with comparatively piddly fortifications), avoided by the people of Wilmskirk, and thwarted by the appearance of an otherwise unknown dragon at Boldhome in 1602.
> The Dara Happans seem to concentrate
> on taking cities through long and costly sieges - even at the expense
> of ignoring mobile forces.
Not that there were much after Broyan's host was walled up in Whitewall. The major incident in the early phase of the Siege of Whitewall appears to have been the drowning of the concubines at Chorms River ford leading to the dismantling of the Kultain tribe (see SR:BA or the Wilmskirk list for details).
: "At Whitewall the commander order the Crimson Bat to assault the city : and exterminate the defenders, whom he called "the last Orlanthi." : Astonishingly, the bat was repelled, though at great cost to the : defenders. Jorkandros the Blinder was replaced by Tatius the Bright, : dean of the Lunar Field School of Magic."
> At this point, Broyan is "the last Orlanthi" king. I assume that he
> is mythically identifying himself as Vingkot - the sole king of the
> Orlanthi.
That smacks of Lokamaydanism, with all the negative consequences. If Broyan really accepted this place in the Lunar scheme, then the entire Iceland trouble is as much his fault as it is Tatius'.
Plus, Vingkot was somewhat successful against Dara Happans (and trolls), but "failed miserably" against Chaos. Broyan's Bat stunt remedied the Chaos defeat, but in the end Dara Happan magics brought about the downfall.
> His hall is filled with heroes from Sartar and Heortland
> (and beyond). Maybe this is where and when his title "High King"
> comes from? Must give him one heck of a bonus when performing
> Vingkot magic!
To what avail? Vingkot's feats against Dara Happans work best in Dara Happan environment. A "ring of the Vingkotlings" against purple-skinned giants (LBQ Luathela) might be interesting, too, but sitting in the hill fort watching the enemy outside makes zero use of the Vingkot advantages.
> BTW, what is the source of Broyan's Larnsti association?
Excellent question. Let me add:
Are these Larnsti identical to the people who trained the Andrinic sheriffs in Heortland outside of Volsaxar?
If so, they may have turned away from Rikard after their role in appointing sheriffs was voided, and joined up with Broyan some time in 1617. I wonder how they turned into a unit of elite fighters, though, but then Larnste's magic is that of turning things into other things.
Another possibility is that a significant amount of Larnsti broke up with Andrin and went to Whitewall to support the high King of the Volsaxar tribes, thereby establishing the tradition of the Larnsti guard.
I guess it would be easiest to ask Peter Metcalfe for his opinion, since Peter is the originator of the Larnsti.
> I know it was once assumed that Broyan and his companions defeated
> the Crimson Bat by teleporting atop him and killing its priests.
There is also a very graphical version of aerial combat over Whitewall
from Tom Zunder's game:
http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd1/1994.12/0318.html
> Is that how we now think it was done? Or were there heroquests and
> ancient rituals that enabled Broyan and his companions to repel the
> Bat?
Bits of either, I suppose. Sending flyers and teleporting troops to fight the priesthood makes sense whatever the method for dealing with the monster itself. I doubt any of Broyan's supporters dreamt that they could redirect the bat to devour the Lunar Army instead.
If there is a heroquest about dealing with the Bat, it would be Arkat's victory over the earlier incarnation of the Bat (leading to its being skinned) in Ralios, a myth probably well known in Kethaela as well. Send in Black Arkati for a key role...
Apart from that, we come to the Second Son mystery of I Fought We Won. Another thing which may have helped trigger the Fimbulwinter.
> It would seem to me that the 1619 assault on Whitewall would
> make one heck of a fine Heroquest scenario - along the lines of the
> Battle of Iceland.
Grander than the Cradle stuff.
> During 1620, the Lunar army reorganizes and reforms in strength
> around Whitewall.
Starting with the conversion of the Sylangi and Bacofi already in 1619. Eliminating the Kultain tribe removed the Sylangi from Broyan's supporters, and the Mad King Hroar epic unfolds along the Solthi rapids. The Curtali are handicapped by losing some choice territory to Baron Sanuel, and are a peace tribe anyway.
> I would assume that the once sparse pickets of
> Jorkandros Blinder (which the Volsaxi and their allies could easily
> bypass) get tighter and tighter as Tatius gathers more and more
> soldiers and magicians to take Whitewall.
The desaster of the drowned concubines will have increased patrol activities in the Lunar backyard anyway. Strategic placement of pet Heortlings clearly is part of the siege.
Personally, I'd like to see some of these pet Heortlings as a main source of hidden support for the defenders of Whitewall. Willandring Clever-Kennings, possibly.
On a none-Heortling tangent, it would be an interesting game to be Tatius' errand boy in the Empire recruiting all those specialist siege units, and then arranging them outside of Whitewall without "French shooting English at Sewastopol" inter-unit rivalry. Getting the concubines in place would be part and parcel of this... "I was Tatius campaign-manager at Whitewall"...
: "Whitewall was more important religiously than it was militarily, : hence Tatius the Bright had been given command. This stronghold was : believed to be the last city of Orlanth, the god who was a rival to : the Red Goddess of the empire. To take it would end the worship of : Orlanth in all cities; a great victory. Tatius spared to preparation : for the assault and naturally got special magicians from the : emperor. Fazzur, Tatius' nominal commander, had no part in this : battle."
> Presumably, all Tatius' preparations raised the stakes dramatically -
> we get to set the scene for OiD. I'm sure, storms brewed all across
> Dragon Pass and all the Orlanthi were made away of the importance of
> the siege.
And I can't help viewing this as a magicked-up Broyan dangling on Tatius' fishing line having swallowed both bait and hook by assuming the Vingkot role.
A real learning experience for Kallyr, who uses the same method on Tatius four years later at the Dragonrising.
> Again, this would make a fun and interesting scenario - I
> assume Broyan and his companions are heroquesting to figure out a way
> to cheat the all-but-certain coming Lunar victory.
I see a lot of "Morden defends the camp"-like identification stuff going on here. On a very abstract level, this is a game of chess with augments between Tatius and Broyan. There are likely militarily useless assaults on certain positions of the walls just to gain an edge in a later magical attack on that or a related position, etc, with the soldiers sacrificed there powering later rituals. The Carmanian Bull Shahs used this type of magic against the Dara Happan Empire in the late Imperial and early Modern Age (the carmanian march, IIRC, in Fortunate Succession).
John, if you want some "military advice", how about crossposting some questions to the Glorwar and Glorantha-Board (Dragon Pass, Nomad Gods) lists? I'm sure those wargamers out there have additional ideas and details!
Back to the Otherworld part of the struggle: I think it would be fun if someplace odd in some otherworld (or possibly in a cabinet in the City of Wonders) a reflection of this conflict grows, where questers can influence the situation not by direct interaction, but by performing semi-related quests. This is probably more game-mechanic than storytelling, but might have some potential. I for one wouldn't mind if some boardgame or checklist analogue of KoDP would be the outcome. In the "Broken Council" freeform the use of such a parallel mechanism was tried (and reputedly failed to some extent, but that was most likely due to the time requirements on freeform referees).
There are the three battles (win/draw/lose) Heortling questers can visit. Maybe these can serve as some kind of mythic potentiometer?
I know of no "Orlanth held out the siege" myths other than Starkval defending Aedin's Wall. There are a number of Greater Darkness survival sagas which did just this, though - some of the stronger ones like Karse (Pelaskites) or Nochet (Esrolvuli) outside of direct Heortling experience. One possibility could be to study these cases, or Ezkankekko holding out against Palangio's siege during the Gbaji Wars.
(Studying Old Karse and its survival handily ties into another project and hobby horse of mine, too... basically exploring the ruined remains of a EWF and troll-haunted city for entry points into the Pelaskite myths. The Lunar occupation of New Karse won't make this easier, either...)
> Then we get to the assault:
: "The Lunar assault went well. To start, seven meteors were hurled : from the moon and struck precisely. They destroyed key parts of the : city, including the Orlanth Temple. When it was buried a great gout : of lightning burst forth, arching over the walls to sear many hundred : troops who quietly awaited the assault. The Seven of Vistur built : seven long ramps from the ground to the wall, and although they : thought it would be easy, several hundred troops whose souls served : as a power source died in supporting the deed. Ten thousand archers : loosed their shafts, and the noise from the flying arrows hurt the : ears of listeners. The Imperial hoplites, glowing with protective : magic, led the attach up the ramps. They were met by rocks which : hurled themselves from the ramparts and rolled down the assault : ramps. Yet the Lunars pushed onward. Without doubt, the assault : would have been as heroic as the Battle of Boldhome, if anyone alive : and corporate had defended Whitewall. But there was almost no one : there. The Lunar troops found only twenty three corpses. None of : the leaders were found."
> So, assuming we were writing this scenario from the Orlanthi point of
> view, what happened?
RuneQuest Adventures #4 makes some suggestions.
All those 7 years ago when Jeff and I discussed this at length, I produced a heavily annotated copy of John Castellucci's stuff. Anybody interested?
> We know Broyan and his companions escaped using
> their Larnsti magic and hid in the frozen hall on Stormwalk
> Mountain.
Actually, I am not sure we know that. Without having the date of that interview at hand, I have often read it as a post-1625 event (after Broyan was "killed" by the Kitori ambush).
I also doubt that Broyan had Larnsti magic himself, so we can assume that the Larnsti were able to take along non-Larnsti if this was their way out.
> But how did the other Orlanthi heroes - Kallyr Starbrow,
> and others - make it out? What kind of amazingly cool and fun to
> game heroquests did the defenders of Whitewall conduct in order to
> pull this off?
Also keep in mind that the moment the Lunars enter the temple and desecrate it, these heroquests take a twist decidedly to the worse, as all their magic fades away. Which might be a reason why Broyan and his companions ended up frozen (if Jeff's proposal for the timing of Broyan's hall is correct).
The "underworld" of Whitewall might feature, too. A contested territory between earth worshippers, trolls and Krarshti (the latter acting through the local thieves' ring).
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