Re2: Saint Orderlies

From: Terra Incognita <inarsus-ferilt_at_kqb1FM_hRob14Wph_oOhfhRei9sTieJe_M4KgOxu1Uuoc9yQphk8zKlkSpkkU>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 23:14:29 +0900

Jamie and Peter, thank you again for your answers:

Me:
>1) When did Saintly Orders firstly appear in Glorantha?

Jamie:
>The earliest saintly orders date from at least the early Dawn Age, but
>did not necessarily take their modern form. (In fact, I'm currently
>writing up a history of a saintly order for Tradetalk

Hmm, which issue?

Peter:
> It was only through the devotions of the Jrusteli (close to
>the lands of the erstwhile Tadeniti) that the Malkioni perspective
>was able to reconciled with writing. And it is typical of the
>God Learners that what was once a lost method has become
>the only mainstream method.

Peter wrote some interesting ideas.
It seems that Peter thinks the modern form of Saintly Orders generally started around 2nd Age.

Me:
> 2) What is Orderly "formularies"? I can make some imagery to Scriptures
> (similar to RW bible) and Grimoires (perhaps it is similar to
Dungeon's and
> Dragon's Spellbook). In HQ rulebook, Formulary is "a non-magical
book that
> contains the specific formula used to cast the spell.".

Jamie:
>A formulary is a type of grimoire used by saintly orders rather than
>wizardry schools. It contains the details of how to cast spells.

Peter:
>A formulary (I understand HQ2.0 has junked the distinction
>between grimoires,formularies and scriptures) is a collection
>of the order's magical knowledge
>as opposed to the direct magic of the saint. In other words,
>it is magic compatible with the Saint's Teachings, magic
>that the Saint is reliablyknown to have used or magic
>developed by the order through magical research.

Jamie:
>In most cases, followers of the saints memorise the spells they are
>taught, without having to literally read the grimoire. The liturgists
>are usually literate, but even that is not always the case, depending
>on which saint we're talking about.

Me:
> So, it might mean that ordinary people can't read their holy books
except
> specialists. Credoes in HQ rulebook about Rokari and Ship of Life
Church
> both mentions "Sanctified Legacies". I am not sure it is from Abiding
> Book.>>

Jamie:
>The 'sanctified legacy' is not necessarily from the Abiding Book,
>although it can be, depending on the sect.

My imagery to Saintly Formularies are a sort of a colorful picture scroll depicting each of lives of Saints. For many formularies are titled 'The Life of Saint []'.

Moreover, IIRC, Greg said in 2001 literacy rates of Gloranthan people are quite low, even in most civilised area, it is around 5 percents of population or so. But it might be gregged during 7 years. (If so, saintly spells might be orally instructed.)

Me:
>3) Is there any clear mention about "Saintly Veneration" in Abiding Book?
>(I
>suppose the answer is "No".)

Jamie:
>The veneration of saints is at least supported by the Abiding Book,
>because its followers in the Imperial Age did exactly that. The
>'sharp' version favoured by the Rokari may be less clearly supportive,
>but it obviously doesn't condemn the practice outright, since even two
>saints are fully integrated into the Rokari Church (Gerlant and
>Iames), and there are a few others that Theoblanc hasn't got round to
>banning yet (e.g. Xemela).

Peter:
>The Abiding Book teaches people how to venerate Malkion. It is
>silent on the issue of whether the veneration of other saints is
>permissable or not.

I agree with Peter, but Jamie (and Malion of Japan) hold counterweights.

1. I suppose most contents in Abiding Book are talking about Malkion and his life in Danmalastan and Malkionwal.
2. From the point of view of game mechanic, the matter will be intricated if AB is silent about the veneration of other saints.
3. From the point of view of RW monotheism, saint veneration is always a target of iconoclasm.
4. In Glorantha, existence of Saints in Saint Plane is real, though quite difficult to contact to it.

Adjective 'Sharp' was also used in God Learner Version of Abiding Book. It might be a random, or intentional coincidence. IIRC, in MSE the god 'Malkioneran the Devil' was the God of 'Sharp' Abiding Book. (Isn't this opinion supported by Rokari?)

Jamie:
>A saint is, essentially, a powerful Malkioni hero who has managed to
>create a node on the Saint Plane, thus allowing his followers access
>to one of the Runes, and some accompanying spells. Saints are
>distinguished from other types of hero, and from the Founders of
>wizardry schools, in that they are recognised as holy by a Church, and
>revealed some significant aspect of God or His worship to the
>faithful. There are exceptions to this general rule, as there are to
>most things in Glorantha, but that's the gist of it.

Is it possible someone still living in Mundane World can be as a Saint? But I found many saints are martyred.....