Allison enters this debate with a considered piece, to which Jeff proposes his counter arguments,
Re: Terror in war
>> Alison:
Re: Terror in war
> Ian and I do have a very serious doubt as to the
> tenability of your central claim, Jeff. That there
> are vigilante groups of Vingans, Orlanthi and others
> taking aim at Lunars and pro-Lunar Sartari (or
> refugees receiving Lunar aid), I shan't dispute. That
> some of them are connected in various ways to Kallyr
> is probabIe to virtually certain.
OK, no problem here.
>
> I do deny that Kallyr herself could personally
> participate in these activities, except secretly or
> possibly very early in her career as a resister, for
> two main reasons. She has ambitions to become Queen
> of Sartar from very early on. She has the
> intelligence to realise that being connected to acts
> such as you describe would make it almost impossible
> to gain acceptance as a future queen. Too many people
> of too many tribes would want vengeance against her
> personally.
With all due respect, why? Killing Lunar colonists and settlers would hardly get her in trouble. And during the Fimbulwinter, I suspect massacres were widespread on all sides. Heck, the Fimbulwinter was to some extent an attempt to utterly eliminate all traditionalist Orlanthi. Her actions then were desperate acts of survival.
What made Kallyr Prince of Sartar was the Dragonraising. After that deed (and the death of King Broyan), Kallyr had no significant rivals who were willing to challenge her claims to primacy. She went to Boldhome and lit the Flame.
>> As we know, she did later become accepted as
>> Queen of Sartar. Quite apart from John's mention of
>> the inevitable kinstrife that would prevent this, we
>> cannot think of anyone in history who performed
>> terrorist acts on their own people, and then was
>> accepted as a national leader. It's always more
>> moderate resistance fighters who get that role. The
>> idealistic, extremist,
>> kill-them-all-God-will-know-his-own types, who commit
>> the really ugly atrocities, are always sidelined in
>> the eventual peacemaking and government rebuilding.
>> People just don't accept them as peacetime leaders or
>> nation builders/rebuilders.
Jeff:
> Like Octavian Caesar? Like Philip or Alexander? Like Yassar Arafat?
> Like many of the anti-colonial fighters who later became President
> (for life)?
Alison:
>> Ian and I do have a very serious doubt as to the
>> tenability of your central claim, Jeff. That there
>> are vigilante groups of Vingans, Orlanthi and others
>> taking aim at Lunars and pro-Lunar Sartari (or
>> refugees receiving Lunar aid), I shan't dispute. That
>> some of them are connected in various ways to Kallyr
>> is probabIe to virtually certain.
Jeff:
> OK, no problem here.
Allison:
>> I do deny that Kallyr herself could personally
>> participate in these activities, except secretly or
>> possibly very early in her career as a resister, for
>> two main reasons. She has ambitions to become Queen
>> of Sartar from very early on. She has the
>> intelligence to realise that being connected to acts
>> such as you describe would make it almost impossible
>> to gain acceptance as a future queen. Too many people
>> of too many tribes would want vengeance against her
>> personally.
Jeff:
> With all due respect, why? Killing Lunar colonists and settlers
> would
> hardly get her in trouble. And during the Fimbulwinter, I suspect
> massacres were widespread on all sides. Heck, the Fimbulwinter was
> to some extent an attempt to utterly eliminate all traditionalist
> Orlanthi. Her actions then were desperate acts of survival.
> What made Kallyr Prince of Sartar was the Dragonraising. After that
> deed (and the death of King Broyan), Kallyr had no significant
> rivals who were willing to challenge her claims to primacy. She
> went to
> Boldhome and lit the Flame.
Allsion:
>> As we know, she did later become accepted as
>> Queen of Sartar. Quite apart from John's mention of
>> the inevitable kinstrife that would prevent this, we
>> cannot think of anyone in history who performed
>> terrorist acts on their own people, and then was
>> accepted as a national leader. It's always more
>> moderate resistance fighters who get that role. The
>> idealistic, extremist,
>> kill-them-all-God-will-know-his-own types, who commit
>> the really ugly atrocities, are always sidelined in
>> the eventual peacemaking and government rebuilding.
>> People just don't accept them as peacetime leaders or
>> nation builders/rebuilders.
Jeff:
> Like Octavian Caesar? Like Philip or Alexander? Like Yassar Arafat?
> Like many of the anti-colonial fighters who later became President
> (for life)?
At thi point I felt that I would chip in,
Rob:
You are probably quite right Jeff, in the real world. But Kallyr for
many is the (a?) central protaganist in Greg Staffords Heroic fiction
for Dragon Pass. And for the unpleasentness you ascribe to Kallyr I
for example use Gyffur Ulfsson. In my interperatation he is probably
much closer to Kallyr than she is comfortable with but in my
Glorantha she tries to mitigate some of his worst excesses while
using his (and his warbands) unremitting capacity for murder, rape
and carnage for 'The Greater Good'.
Jeff:
> Odds are Kallyr herself does not kill prisoners, Lunar captives, or
> civilians personally, but I would be extremely surprised if she has
> not been present when her own followers did the deed.
>
> And I suspect Kallyr's biggest concern with Gyffur is not his
> tactics per se, but the extend he is willing to go with them.
> Gyffur is likely willing to kill neutrals and not just Lunar
> supporters.
Rob:
There are a number of characters in the Sartar Rising storyline. Are
you not in danger of making Sartar one dimensional by all the
resistance leaders having the same theme?
Jeff:
> Resistance leaders is such a horribly Reuters-style term. Call
> Kallyr what she is - an ambitious tribal warlord whose deeds are
> blessed by the gods and goddesses of her tribe and who seeks to
> forcibly eliminate the foreign conquerers of her land and their
> sympathizers and supporters. Orlanthi history is filled with such
> figures. To their friends and supporters, they are noble heroes.
> To their enemies, they are vicious murderers.
Thats where we got to. To Jeff I would repeate that to lump all the Sartar resistance in the category not only risks making them unsympathetic to the audience looking at the Sartar Rising story arc as a story and something other than 'feigned history'.
That aside, from a story perspective its also unsatisfying to have little distinguish the central characters other than their clothes! :^)
Regards
Rob
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